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Disturbing? Strange? Normal?
Thread poster: Álvaro Espantaleón Moreno
Mario Chavez (X)
Mario Chavez (X)  Identity Verified
Local time: 09:07
English to Spanish
+ ...
Taking *** lying down Apr 7, 2017

Chris S wrote:


Mario Chavez wrote:
If we are professionals, we can't take every rejection letter too personally. Clients come and go, so project managers and smiling receptionists. And being professional means answering that letter in a businesslike manner.

We certainly can, Mario. Being professional is about providing a quality service, not about taking this kind of **** lying down. I'm not a robot but a human being, and I'd tell them where to shove their request in no uncertain terms.



We don't see eye to eye. Being a professional is always acting in a businesslike manner and in accordance to local professional customs. If we were in some parts of the Middle East, we would haggle with the customer over rates. That's a local practice. Their practice.

But since we are professionals working from our home office in one part of the planet and dealing with customers from different business cultures in other countries, we need to aim for a higher plane of professionalism: no whining, no "shove it up your arse" statements, not losing our cool or patience. My quality service has to be on a par with the way I treat my customers, good and bad.

It is definitely unprofessional to me to react angrily at a customer simply because he or she makes a typo on a letter or sends a letter without including my full name.


 
Tom in London
Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 13:07
Member (2008)
Italian to English
Your wisdom Apr 7, 2017

Maija Cirule wrote:

Age doesn't always bring wisdom, sometimes age comes alone...


As an example of wisdom, that's pretty nasty.

[Edited at 2017-04-07 12:47 GMT]


 
John Fossey
John Fossey  Identity Verified
Canada
Local time: 09:07
Member (2008)
French to English
+ ...
Suggestions Apr 7, 2017

They are only making suggestions. If I received such an email, I would simply ignore it. Chances are nothing would change. I agree that the very fact of suggesting a reduction would indicate to me that they need my services.

I have in the past told a client that I had to raise their rate. They complained bitterly and said it would reduce the amount of work they sent my way. It didn't, and they remain a good client, at the higher rate.


 
DZiW (X)
DZiW (X)
Ukraine
English to Russian
+ ...
I agree with Tom--mutual concessions only Apr 7, 2017

Too many interpretations of the same idea to get much more for even less...

Although communications is always welcome and a must, but win-win negotiations involve equal parties, not from position of power, abuse, or intimidation. I admit the letter might be but an awkward personal message, yet it does speak vividly at least about a few company representatives and, perhaps, business-wise.

Indeed, some things do change fast and big, but not as 'take it or leave it' approa
... See more
Too many interpretations of the same idea to get much more for even less...

Although communications is always welcome and a must, but win-win negotiations involve equal parties, not from position of power, abuse, or intimidation. I admit the letter might be but an awkward personal message, yet it does speak vividly at least about a few company representatives and, perhaps, business-wise.

Indeed, some things do change fast and big, but not as 'take it or leave it' approach, let alone letting their people down.

I would weight pro's and con's for myself, yet it's quite obvious here, because there's no such beast as 'alternative facts'--it's either right and worthy, or not; however, there're always decent offers and opts to consider)
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Robert Forstag
Robert Forstag  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 09:07
Spanish to English
+ ...
Disrespectful, impersonal, and oh so typical... Apr 7, 2017

Álvaro Espantaleón wrote:

I have received this email today:

"Dear partner,

You've probably noticed that you haven't been assigned projects lately.

This is likely to do with the fact that your rate is significantly above the average rates that our other service providers charge us. Our Project Managers have profitability targets to meet and when assigning the projects they most likely will choose the linguists whose rates are closer to the averages.

Our business model relies on large volumes. We have long term contracts with the largest corporations in the world and because the volume of words we provide them is so big we cannot charge the same that an individual translator would.

Having that in mind, I thought I'd write to you today and see if you would be willing to renegotiate your rate to a level which is closer to our average.

Alternatively, if you consider that your current rate is the minimum you'd be willing to work for, would you like me to remove your name from our database so you no longer receive our availability check emails?

Kindly let me know."


Several comments.

1.
The disrespect begins with the impersonal salutation. This makes it clear from the get-go that Alvaro is one of dozens (perhaps hundreds) of "valued vendors" receiving this same e-mail, and sends the not-so-subtle message that his unique combination of abilities, services, know-how, etc. are not particularly valued by the agency in question.

2.
Things quickly get worse with the snide and insinuating first line. This really is the equivalent of throwing shit in someone's face and then casually commenting, "You may have noticed that something smells a bit unpleasant."

I think it is possible to at least imagine a scenario in which a PM of the agency in question, feeling pressured by the demands of his superiors, but not wanting to lose the collaboration of a valued collaborator, might have taken a few minutes to write something that showed that Alvaro's services really were valued.

And acknowledging the reality of the reduced number of assignments, rather than suggesting the absurd possibility that Alvaro might not have noticed it, would have been helpful - and more professional - as well.

3.
The second sentence of the third paragraph really cuts to the chase: in the end, the decisions of said agency are governed primarily by money. Presumably, quality comes into play only if a client actually complains or - worse yet - withholds payment for services.

4.
As someone else has pointed out, the stuff in the third paragraph about large volumes really doesn't make much sense. According to that logic, "the more work we assign you, the lower the rate you can expect to be offered." I guess that, in practical terms, this means that if Alvaro wants to remain in the good graces of this agency, he can turn himself into a drudge willing to work 12-hour days for (perhaps) 150 euros or so.

5.
As to the final two paragraphs, just a couple of comments. "Renegotiate" is really a misnomer here, is it not? Isn't the reality more of an ultimatum along the lines of: "Offer a rate that we consider acceptable, and we will consider doing business with you. (Of course, Alvaro has no guarantee that if he offers what he considers a low rate, that he will actually obtain a high volume of work from this outfit, since there may be other translators who offer even lower rates. As someone else has previously indicated in this thread, this is part of the never-ending downward spiral of the "race to the bottom.")

The final paragraph simply reinforces the "take it or leave it" message.






[Edited at 2017-04-07 16:30 GMT]


 
Robert Forstag
Robert Forstag  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 09:07
Spanish to English
+ ...
S**t is served up in many different varieties Apr 7, 2017

Chris S wrote:
Being professional is about providing a quality service, not about taking this kind of **** lying down. I'm not a robot but a human being, and I'd tell them where to shove their request in no uncertain terms.


Agreed.

People can be rude, dismissive, and disrespectful under a guise of cordiality and amiability. But this, alas, does not change the underlying reality of their behavior.

I am thoroughly underwhelmed by expressions of friendliness and concern that are accompanied by what amounts to thoroughly disrespectful treatment (e.g., sending job notifications that amount to spam, engaging me in a back-and-forth over some potential project for a couple of hours only to assign it to someone else, outright lies to the effect that an end client has suddenly cancelled a project).

In short, people can play you for a chump with a smile on their faces.

I for one would rather recognize that I am being so played - and act accordingly.


 
Josephine Cassar
Josephine Cassar  Identity Verified
Malta
Local time: 14:07
Member (2012)
English to Maltese
+ ...
Nice Apr 7, 2017

Good one Nikki Scottt-Despaigne. There were many good answers and considers but this beats them all. That's how we shaould all reason.

 
Anton Konashenok
Anton Konashenok  Identity Verified
Czech Republic
Local time: 14:07
French to English
+ ...
A constructive approach Apr 7, 2017

The agency's demand as it stands is obviously unreasonable, but a translator who is substantially less than 100% busy can transform it into a win-win proposition: offer the agency a discount they are asking for, but predicate it upon the amount of work. For example, if they order over 20000 words in any given month, offer them a 20% discount for that month.

 
MK2010
MK2010  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 09:07
French to English
+ ...
Weigh the pros and cons Apr 7, 2017

This happened to me too. An agency I've been working with for many years, and which used to give me loads of really interesting work that I enjoyed tremendously, has sort of fallen off my radar (or rather vice versa). I once asked my PM why I was getting less work than before, and he said, well to tell you the truth, your rates are higher that some of the other translators. (The other factor was that one of their big contracts, through which I was getting a big chunk of my work, came to an end. ... See more
This happened to me too. An agency I've been working with for many years, and which used to give me loads of really interesting work that I enjoyed tremendously, has sort of fallen off my radar (or rather vice versa). I once asked my PM why I was getting less work than before, and he said, well to tell you the truth, your rates are higher that some of the other translators. (The other factor was that one of their big contracts, through which I was getting a big chunk of my work, came to an end. Yet another factor is that project managers come and go very quickly, so all my favorite ones are long gone and, due to less work, I have not established the same super friendly rapport with the newer ones).

Anyway, I went from billing them hundreds or thousands of dollars a month to virtually nothing, and while my income comes mostly from direct clients now, I do occasionally miss the nature of the work (and the end clients) I was doing with this agency, and at some point I intend to get back on their radar. I might consider reducing my rate if it meant more projects on a regular basis in fields I enjoy. We'll see. To me rate is just one factor among several others. I would put regularity of work at the top of the list, followed by the type of work. Any rate I charge is one I consider fair, and while Regularity + Favorite field + Top rate would be the best scenario in a perfect world, regular clients who pay slightly less = a higher priority for me than clients who pay my top rate but only send me a project every once in a blue moon.



[Edited at 2017-04-07 19:02 GMT]
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Kay-Viktor Stegemann
Kay-Viktor Stegemann
Germany
Local time: 14:07
English to German
In memoriam
That's not how it works Apr 7, 2017

Anton Konashenok wrote:

The agency's demand as it stands is obviously unreasonable, but a translator who is substantially less than 100% busy can transform it into a win-win proposition: offer the agency a discount they are asking for, but predicate it upon the amount of work. For example, if they order over 20000 words in any given month, offer them a 20% discount for that month.


As mentioned above, I have no problems with doing rate negotiations, but I have to agree with the others that higher volume is no justification for a lower rate. Quite the contrary. When I get more work, this is not a benefit for me, it is a problem. I cannot stretch my working hours beyond a certain point, I cannot utilize scaling effects because this is not automated work, and I cannot farm out the work to others because I'm not an agency myself. Therefore what I need is not more work, what I need is a higher rate for the working hours that I can offer. That's my goal in any kind of negotiation or when I look for new clients.

(Well, regarding the scaling effects, there might be some benefit in receiving large volumes when all of it belongs to the same context, so I can familiarize me with the topic and indeed work somewhat faster. But this is the only advantage I can imagine regarding large volumes.)

Translation is manual work and the number of qualified translators cannot be increased short-term, therefore volume discounts make no sense. Volume discounts make sense when you can use machinery and automation.


 
DZiW (X)
DZiW (X)
Ukraine
English to Russian
+ ...
not embarassing Apr 7, 2017

Actually, I would like to remark, sometimes even seemingly polite or neutral translation still may be perceived as a reproach, a sneer, or something. It's not because of a specific lex or style, whatever, but rather translated wording.

Quite possible, the author of the letter didn't intend it to be mean or unpleasant, yet after translation it did seem as one. Unfortunately, such an occasion happened to me too a couple of times, when I took a translated offer very personal or
... See more
Actually, I would like to remark, sometimes even seemingly polite or neutral translation still may be perceived as a reproach, a sneer, or something. It's not because of a specific lex or style, whatever, but rather translated wording.

Quite possible, the author of the letter didn't intend it to be mean or unpleasant, yet after translation it did seem as one. Unfortunately, such an occasion happened to me too a couple of times, when I took a translated offer very personal or suspiciously, but only after another go a bit later realized it.

However, ignoring a particular emotiveness and related connotations, the meaning is still either take it or leave it, but less impertinent now--translation makes wonders)
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Dan Lucas
Dan Lucas  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 13:07
Member (2014)
Japanese to English
The golden rule Apr 7, 2017

Tom in London wrote:
Maija Cirule wrote:
Age doesn't always bring wisdom, sometimes age comes alone...

As an example of wisdom, that's pretty nasty.

What, and your perpetual sniping and snide comments about the English used by other people in posts on this forum are NOT nasty?

Consider the beam in your own eye before you make petty judgements on the motes in the eyes of others.

Or, to put it another way, if you want to be mean to those who make posts on this forum, then be prepared for others to be mean to you.


 
Anton Konashenok
Anton Konashenok  Identity Verified
Czech Republic
Local time: 14:07
French to English
+ ...
Kay, you and I must be in a different situation Apr 7, 2017

Kay-Viktor Stegemann wrote:
When I get more work, this is not a benefit for me, it is a problem. I cannot stretch my working hours beyond a certain point, I cannot utilize scaling effects because this is not automated work, and I cannot farm out the work to others because I'm not an agency myself. Therefore what I need is not more work, what I need is a higher rate for the working hours that I can offer.


I specifically mentioned that in order to benefit from offering a discount in exchange for a guaranteed amount of work, the translator in question should be much less than 100% busy. When we already have plenty of work, the situation is different, and here I would agree with you wholeheartedly, it only makes sense to increase rates.


 
Michael Newton
Michael Newton  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 09:07
Japanese to English
+ ...
Disturbing? Apr 7, 2017

The wording of this letter reminds me of the Japanese concept of "ingin burei", "hypocritical courtesy, superficially polite but rude in intent".
I also notice that these threads are oftentimes as contentious as the on-line comments to the Guardian.


 
Ilan Rubin (X)
Ilan Rubin (X)  Identity Verified
Russian Federation
Local time: 16:07
Russian to English
Impersonal messages Apr 8, 2017

Any emails not addressed to me personally get deleted without being read. Reading them and, especially, answering them is just a waste of time.

 
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