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Trend to reduce translation rates
Thread poster: Friedrich Reinold
Robert Rietvelt
Robert Rietvelt  Identity Verified
Local time: 17:22
Member (2006)
Spanish to Dutch
+ ...
@Colleen Jan 28, 2019

Colleen Roach, PhD wrote:

Robert wrote:

I work/worked for 2 of them (Europe based), and they are lousy payers.

Two out of three 07:41

Liviu-Lee Roth wrote:

Colleen Roach, PhD wrote:

I’ll weigh in with some points here. Excuse me for being a bit US-centric.

- “America’s Translation Rate Holds Firm at USD 0.22,” was published last December https://slator.com/industry-news/americas-translation-rate-holds-firm-at-usd-0-22/

-the title of the report is totally misleading. It provides data indicating that the “Big Three” (all US based translation agencies) in terms of “proposals” (i.e. bids) to the U.S. federal government for translation jobs charge rates of .22, .25 and .26 cents per word (rounded off). Of course, this doesn’t mean – at all – that these are the rates being earned by freelance translators working for these agencies.

-there is an enormous difference in the language pairs providing work to translators



Correct assessment.
I happen to work with all three „Big” and they charge .28/word for our work (meaning translation and review) and pay us .20/wd (which I consider fair) with a constant high volume of work for the US government.

So far, I did not notice any drop in rates for my language pair, or, maybe I disregarded the low offers.


I work/worked for 2 of them (Europe based), and they are lousy payers.

Agree

Me: Robert, maybe it's the language pair? Fewer translators with Romanian to English?


Yes, different language pairs = different rates. I translate EN/ES/DE > NL, and I think that I am asking a reasonable price for my services as senior translator.

One of the 3 B's only pay me my price in case of winning a new client. In that case the mail I receive starts with "Dear Robert" in stead of "Hi everybody" (or something like that).

Coleen, another, more personal thing. I noticed that you copy and paste the threads, while Proz has such a nice tool for that. Check the "Quote Post" feature next to the agree button.

[Edited at 2019-01-28 14:44 GMT]


 
jyuan_us
jyuan_us  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 12:22
Member (2005)
English to Chinese
+ ...
Yes, but Jan 28, 2019

Maxi Schwarz wrote:

Friedrich Reinold wrote:

Despite the fact that everything around you gets more expensive, translation agencies have started a trend to REDUCE translation rates and to even force their existing pool of linguists to accept reduction percentages from a certain PO amount or annual overall total.

  • What is your experience with this?
  • What are your views about this?
  • How do you respond to this?

  • It would be interesting to see whether this is typical in certain regions/countries and/or language combinations or a general trend. I, for my part, have noticed this trend particularly in English to German for European agencies.

    Since translation agencies are customer, and customers don't determine how much they will be paying for a product, they cannot set rates, therefore this is an impossibility. Of course they can always try to get us to reduce our rates (they cannot reduce our rates), and some translators may fall for it. But they cannot actually reduce the rates that after all, we charge them.


    A lot of agencies do set their rates. You may reject the rates they have set but a lot of translators do accept the rates set by their agencies.

    Their not being supposed to set their rates does not mean thy will not do it. The term that is relevant here is "offer". They do offer their own rates.

    [Edited at 2019-01-28 14:31 GMT]


    Colleen Roach, PhD
     
    Friedrich Reinold
    Friedrich Reinold
    United States
    Local time: 09:22
    Member (2003)
    English to German
    TOPIC STARTER
    Market price Jan 28, 2019

    Maxi Schwarz wrote:
    Since translation agencies are customer, and customers don't determine how much they will be paying for a product, they cannot set rates, therefore this is an impossibility. Of course they can always try to get us to reduce our rates (they cannot reduce our rates), and some translators may fall for it. But they cannot actually reduce the rates that after all, we charge them.


    I totally agree with you. But set or insist on your rate, and you won't get jobs or only very few. The market dictates the price, and unfortunately agencies are at a better negotiating position choosing from an (over)abundance of resources - at least in the common language pairs. I think the only way to combat this is specialization. But I'm afraid the agencies' clients only care for the price - since "everybody can do translations with the help of Google." It's like the struggle of professional photographers justifying their rates, since "everybody has a camera and Photoshop", as someone in the industry told me.


    Tanami
    Laura Kingdon
    Vaclav Hruza
     
    Friedrich Reinold
    Friedrich Reinold
    United States
    Local time: 09:22
    Member (2003)
    English to German
    TOPIC STARTER
    Demand and Supply Jan 28, 2019

    Thank you all for your valuable input. Based on your comments, it seems indeed that lowering translation rates is mainly driven by an abundance of resources in the common language pairs of English to/from Spanish, German, French, etc., while Japanese or Chinese into English appears to be in high demand against a relatively small pool of capable linguists.

    Colleen Roach, PhD
     
    Paweł Hamerski (X)
    Paweł Hamerski (X)
    Local time: 17:22
    English to Polish
    + ...
    maybe there is such a trend but I keep to my rates last 10 years or so Jan 28, 2019

    deigning only for charitable reasons (unless I am sometimes mistaken)

     
    Maria da Glória Teixeira
    Maria da Glória Teixeira  Identity Verified
    Brazil
    Local time: 13:22
    Member (2020)
    English to Portuguese
    + ...
    Trend ? Jan 29, 2019

    I am a translator since 2012 from English, French, Spanish to Portuguese (BR) my rate is 0.07USD or 0.07EUR, so far only one agency in China after completing the test is whoever proposed to pay the word value of 0.25 cent, I think very low, unfortunately chose to refuse.

     
    Michal Fabian
    Michal Fabian  Identity Verified
    Canada
    Local time: 12:22
    Dutch to Slovak
    + ...
    For translators with such experience, I always have the same question: Jan 29, 2019

    What is your USP?

    Also, this is fun:
    http://www.globalrichlist.com/


    Daniel Coria
     
    henryalianel
    henryalianel
    United States
    Translation fees Oct 27, 2019

    Back in 2003, when I started as a freelance translator for television and film, there weren't as many translators and agencies offering translation services as there are today. I used to charge $0.18 x word (from 2003 to 2016) to my direct clients (never worked for an agency). But starting back in 2016, my clients starting asking about my fees and giving me less and less work. Today I charge $0.12 and clients are calling back. So my professional opinion is that... while I concur business is toug... See more
    Back in 2003, when I started as a freelance translator for television and film, there weren't as many translators and agencies offering translation services as there are today. I used to charge $0.18 x word (from 2003 to 2016) to my direct clients (never worked for an agency). But starting back in 2016, my clients starting asking about my fees and giving me less and less work. Today I charge $0.12 and clients are calling back. So my professional opinion is that... while I concur business is tougher and margins of profit have been severely cut (mostly from increased competition), working for an agency means working for someone who marks-up our professional fee. So I would encourage everyone here (particularly the new additions to this wonderful and gratifying profession), to consider flying solo, get clients directly bypassing the agency. How? I can only speak of my personal experience. I did it by joining associations, playing tennis, rowing, and bicycling, going to ALL my church's events...where everyone new you meet invariably asks: "What do you do?". And that's exactly how I built my long list of clients which include Univision, Telemundo, NBC and several TV and film production companies around the world. Check my site at www.alianelli.net. If I may inspire just one person here to do just that, it'll make me very happy. Cheers and blessings to all.Collapse


    John Fossey
    Julie Barber
    Denis Danchenko
    Mina Chen
    Kuochoe Nikoi-Kotei
    Dunia Cusin
    Jun Katagiri
     
    Soraya Amaral de Araújo
    Soraya Amaral de Araújo  Identity Verified
    Brazil
    Local time: 13:22
    Member (2011)
    English to Portuguese
    + ...
    one year later... Mar 3, 2020

    I am reading this more than one year since the conversation started. I used to work regularly for a few agencies performing tasks such as translation, revision, QA, e-learning courses/video testing etc and the reason that brought me here is that last month I have had almost nothing to work so I am trying to understand what is going on.

    Most recently the agencies I work for have been 'forcing' me to perform what they call full post-editing projects. If you not aware it means adjustin
    ... See more
    I am reading this more than one year since the conversation started. I used to work regularly for a few agencies performing tasks such as translation, revision, QA, e-learning courses/video testing etc and the reason that brought me here is that last month I have had almost nothing to work so I am trying to understand what is going on.

    Most recently the agencies I work for have been 'forcing' me to perform what they call full post-editing projects. If you not aware it means adjusting machine translation to a comprehensible text. Of course they want it to be perfect and also to low down my rates per word and per hour. Strange thing is that the 3 most regular agencies I work with are doing the same thing and I think: What a coincidence!

    So, they are finding the way to make me work more for less, because I do not need them to offer me a machine translated text, I can do it myself. And how come this is happening to most of the agencies I have been working with for at least 5-10 years?

    Will we have to agree upon their market rules? This is what I do for a living so I cannot refuse work for a long time.

    Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
    Collapse


     
    Emily Gilby
    Emily Gilby  Identity Verified
    United Kingdom
    Local time: 16:22
    Member (2018)
    French to English
    + ...
    IMO... Mar 3, 2020

    The way I see it is, agencies enjoy making profits so why would they let translators increase their rates and therefore reduce their profit margin when they know they'll be able to find someone else to do the job at the rates they want? They don't see us as human beings who need to make a living to pay the bills and feed themselves just like they do, they see us as a product and with today's technology they can distance themselves from the fact that we are real people and find a cheaper "product... See more
    The way I see it is, agencies enjoy making profits so why would they let translators increase their rates and therefore reduce their profit margin when they know they'll be able to find someone else to do the job at the rates they want? They don't see us as human beings who need to make a living to pay the bills and feed themselves just like they do, they see us as a product and with today's technology they can distance themselves from the fact that we are real people and find a cheaper "product" who might even be just as good as you. It's a complex issue but agencies seem to be one of the main causes of the downward trend in rates. I, for one, would love to get more direct clients but the fact of the matter is that my specialism (medicine) doesn't really work like this. Big medical/pharmaceutical companies don't want to waste their time shopping around for sole translators, plus they usually have huge volumes of work so they outsource the work. Everyone's situation is different but the goal is the same, we all want to make a decent living. It's not going to be a quick fix (or maybe it won't be fixed at all) but I think the best thing we can do is just to keep each other informed about how we are feeling about the industry in places like this forum and support each other - it definitely comforts me to come here during quiet periods and realise that I'm not the only one feeling hopeless with nothing coming in and having agencies constantly telling me my rates are too high.Collapse


    Jocelin Meunier
    Soraya Amaral de Araújo
     
    Dan Lucas
    Dan Lucas  Identity Verified
    United Kingdom
    Local time: 16:22
    Member (2014)
    Japanese to English
    The answer remains the same Mar 3, 2020

    Emily Scott wrote:
    They don't see us as human beings who need to make a living to pay the bills and feed themselves just like they do

    But you know, this is a business transaction. The agency really isn't responsible for whether you, or I, can make a living. We shouldn't expect them to make decisions on that basis. I can assure that it's the same in most other industries, such as manufacturing.

    You. Must. Have. Something. Extra.

    That's how to catch their eye. But then we already discussed this in your Impossible Deadlines thread, didn't we? I'm sorry for not being able to add anything new, but I think the solution is unchanged: everybody needs a unique selling point.

    If you look at the people on here who seem to have stable flows of work at decent rates, they are mostly specialists with years of industry experience behind them (just off the top of my head - Tom, Fiona, Rachel W, myself), or they suck up a very wide range of work in a smaller language pair (possibly Samuel?) and make a virtue of availability and flexibility. Or maybe there are people whose quality is mediocre but who work incredibly quickly.

    I can imagine it's tough. I think most of those starting out should have another line of work to tide them over while getting established, or work in some other profession first.

    Regards,
    Dan


    Friedrich Reinold
    Kay-Viktor Stegemann
     
    Jocelin Meunier
    Jocelin Meunier  Identity Verified
    France
    Local time: 17:22
    English to French
    + ...
    . Mar 3, 2020

    Dan Lucas wrote:
    The agency really isn't responsible for whether you, or I, can make a living. We shouldn't expect them to make decisions on that basis.


    Who knew "a fair pay for a fair job" was too much to ask?

    In all seriousness: I think this kind of thinking is wrong and dangerous. Agencies, and any provider anywhere for that matter, should pay people decently for their work. This is how it is supposed to work. Excusing this exploitative behaviour with lines saying pretty much "it's your fault because you're not special" is wrong in every way. Take a basic MacDonald's employee; do you think you could say "You have nothing extra so we will pay you under minimum wage" ?
    We deliver a service, we work. We have every right to at least expect a decent rate. It is not a matter of agency responsibility, it is a matter of common decency. Saying "well, that's business" is just silencing, to this point.


    DZiW (X)
    Emily Gilby
     
    Dan Lucas
    Dan Lucas  Identity Verified
    United Kingdom
    Local time: 16:22
    Member (2014)
    Japanese to English
    Two tribes Mar 3, 2020

    Jocelin Meunier wrote:
    Take a basic MacDonald's employee

    But we're not employees, are we?

    Agencies ... should pay people decently for their work.

    We can turn down low-paying jobs, can we not?

    "You have nothing extra so we will pay you under minimum wage"

    This is a global, unregulated industry in which no minimum wage exists and, as mentioned above, in any case what we are paid is not wages.

    We deliver a service, we work. We have every right to at least expect a decent rate.

    No, you don't. Nobody has a right to succeed in a specific profession. You're confusing equal opportunities with equal outcomes.

    And your work? It's worth what you agree to sell it for.

    Look Jocelin, we can ping-pong back and forth all year. This has been a perennial theme on the forum for at least five years, and probably twice or three times that, and there is no sign of it ever being resolved. Your team has its lines and my team has its lines, and never the twain shall meet, apparently.

    Here's a quote from p.49 of the recent "The State of the Linguist Supply Chain" from CSA Research:

    On average, linguists earn US$29,000 per year before taxes. One in five respondents (21%) earn less than US$5,000 annually ... Nearly one-half (49%) earn less than US$20,000 annually. However, at the other end of the spectrum, 14 respondents declared earning more than US$200,000 from their language services.

    This research suggests that some people make a decent living out of translation, but many do not (which chimes with what I read here in the forum). Those in the latter group would be well-advised to emulate the former group if they wish to succeed. If they can't do that, they should seek another profession to which they are better suited.

    That's not a rhetorical flourish on my part. I really do believe that some - perhaps most - people in this profession are just not cut out for the hurly-burly of freelancer life, and would be much happier working as an employee with all the stability that implies. Unfortunately, there aren't many in-house translation jobs left, so what's left is switching careers.

    I have always argued that this business is a steep pyramid, with the bulk of the money going to the top 10% of freelancers, and the figures in the quote above do nothing to change my opinion.

    Do what it takes to be in the top 10%. That's all we can do. Strive, fail, pick yourself up, fail again. Fail better.

    Regards
    Dan


    Maciek Drobka
    Kevin Fulton
    Friedrich Reinold
    Michele Fauble
     
    Jocelin Meunier
    Jocelin Meunier  Identity Verified
    France
    Local time: 17:22
    English to French
    + ...
    Dan Mar 3, 2020

    I do understand where your position come from, you know. But what you advise doesn't work in our days. Most succesful translators are long-established in this industry, sometimes as far as 30 years ago. Newcomers can't emulate what the most succesful translators do because things don't work the same way.
    Rates from agencies and clients alike have dropped significantly, even in just 5 years. Agencies especially have adopted a strong "work for peanuts or I ask someone else" mentality. It's n
    ... See more
    I do understand where your position come from, you know. But what you advise doesn't work in our days. Most succesful translators are long-established in this industry, sometimes as far as 30 years ago. Newcomers can't emulate what the most succesful translators do because things don't work the same way.
    Rates from agencies and clients alike have dropped significantly, even in just 5 years. Agencies especially have adopted a strong "work for peanuts or I ask someone else" mentality. It's not even a matter of success, it's a matter of making a basic, decent living. The problem translators have nowadays is that rates have been cut so hard globally, you can't even make enough to pay the rent, sometimes. In other words, it's a matter of stopping this industry from going overkill on its translators, the one who actually provide the service needed. Success can come after that. But whatever the industry, whatever the period, one thing should be a given: clients (and agencies in this case) have a responsibility to pay fairly. This is pretty much the basics of any work law and regulation.
    Collapse


    Soraya Amaral de Araújo
     
    Dan Lucas
    Dan Lucas  Identity Verified
    United Kingdom
    Local time: 16:22
    Member (2014)
    Japanese to English
    Of course it's possible Mar 3, 2020

    I do understand where your position come from, you know.

    No, I don't think you do. Your comments suggest that your attitude to life is very different to mine. There's a strong sense that you feel entitled to certain things, such as higher rates and nicer clients, but the harsh truth is that the world does not owe you a living.

    Me, I cannot afford to sit around arguing that my rights are being infringed, and rueing the inequity of the world. I have a family to feed, so I get out there and make myself visible to clients, win orders, and deliver them. Works for me.

    Jocelin Meunier wrote:
    But what you advise doesn't work in our days.

    Yes it does. I became a full-time freelancer in 2015 and was earning more than the UK's median wage in my first year. My income has grown steadily since. I am competent, diligent and reliable, but I'm no superstar translator. Still, I have a blend of qualifications, including industry experience, that clients want, and I act and behave in a professional manner. So this suggests that becoming successful is possible even today, if you have what is in demand.

    And if you don't have whatever it is that is in demand, go out there and get the knowledge and the experience, as for example one well-known forum member did when she took a nursing qualification to boost her credentials with clients as a medical translator.

    She thought about what she needed, and put that thought into action. And then worked her guts out for an extended period to achieve her goals. No doubt she has good days and bad days (as do I), but she's not on here complaining. Again, that happened within the past five years, and again, that's the kind of behaviour that characterises successful people.

    Rates from agencies and clients alike have dropped significantly, even in just 5 years.

    I haven't seen data to suggest that. I know that last time I looked, US government data on incomes for all translators and interpreters were showing a fairly steady rise over the past couple of decades. My own rates haven't fallen. My average rate has increased slightly over the past few years, probably because there is no one monolithic market, but rather hundreds of markets of different sizes and different types. No doubt rates have fallen in some markets, but if you're working in a market where the lowest rate is the only thing that matters, clearly you're in the wrong place.

    But whatever the industry, whatever the period, one thing should be a given: clients (and agencies in this case) have a responsibility to pay fairly. This is pretty much the basics of any work law and regulation.

    Balderdash. Such regulations do exist - and are often of dubious social value - but they are aimed at employees, not independent contractors like ourselves. If you want somebody to look after you, sacrifice your independence and become an employee. There's no shame in that; it's an honorable compromise with many advantages.

    For non-employees, rates for a service are determined by what the buyer is prepared to pay. If the buyer in question is not prepared to pay more, what can you do?* You can't force that buyer to purchase at the rate you want. Artificially supporting prices by imposing a minimum rate will just cause buyers to buy less and/or seek substitutes such as MT. In a global market such as translation, buyers will simply avoid countries or regions with onerous regulation. See the thread on the AB5 Bill in California for a very recent example of translation agencies withdrawing from a regional market.

    We're going round in circles, so I will call it a day here and leave the last word to you. In any case, wishing for special protection and privileges is pointless. Both you and I must deal with the world as it is, not as we would like it to be.

    Regards,
    Dan

    *The correct answer is that you must make yourself attractive to a client who will buy at the higher rate at which you are prepared to sell


    Dunia Cusin
    Friedrich Reinold
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