| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4] > | Is transparency a requirement for agency rate policies? Thread poster: Catherine Pawlick
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Tina Vonhof (X)
Canada
Local time: 16:45
Dutch to English
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Hi Catherine,
I'm sorry this happened to you. I experienced a similar situation. What I suspect is that the agency had hired a new manager, who was to radically re-organize their whole financial system without any appreciation of quality of work or consideration for the people who delivered it. As others have suggested, it's all about the money. But it's sad to be dumped by a long-term client that you enjoyed working with.
| | | | LIZ LI 
China
Local time: 06:45
French to Chinese
+ ...
| Sorry to hear that | Feb 25, 2020 |
I'm so sorry to hear this kind of story from a fellow translator, though we don't know each other in person.
Everything comes with a reason, in this particular case, it might be a fusion-acquisition from another big corp. which led them to a dramatical budget control.
Or a new strategy has been made to get a higher profitability while operating after the boss sent a team of consultants into the office last year.
Who knows? Who cares?
What I suggest Catherine... See more I'm so sorry to hear this kind of story from a fellow translator, though we don't know each other in person.
Everything comes with a reason, in this particular case, it might be a fusion-acquisition from another big corp. which led them to a dramatical budget control.
Or a new strategy has been made to get a higher profitability while operating after the boss sent a team of consultants into the office last year.
Who knows? Who cares?
What I suggest Catherine to do at this moment, is to try to find out a solution with this agency, or to cope with new ones.
If this agency is still operative even if they didn't send you any job for a while, it means that they've got some who is/are able to do the job as you previously did.
You seem not to have any other option but to accept a 50% rate if you still want to work for them.
Or try with other clients, potential or not, if you lower your rate by 10%, then 15%/20%/25%, would it be possible that they send you more tasks?
In most cases, you don't necessarily have to cut it half to get the same volume of works with other agencies.
Oh, btw, transparency, I don't think we have it here.
I propose different rates to different clients/ projects, and they won't definitely have any kind of transparency from me.
Vice versa. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Catherine Pawlick
United States
Local time: 01:45
Russian to English
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TOPIC STARTER
Well misery loves....although you all aren't miserable, thank God, that gives me some hope.
Thank you for all of the replies and input. At least I am not alone)
I agree with the idea on unionization, if not in a union-format per se, at least in a "non bottom feeding" way. I find that the bottom feeders are the reason the more experienced translators get stuck in these situations. Yes I'm guilty for focusing on the one egg, but if low-balling the rates was not accepted b... See more Well misery loves....although you all aren't miserable, thank God, that gives me some hope.
Thank you for all of the replies and input. At least I am not alone)
I agree with the idea on unionization, if not in a union-format per se, at least in a "non bottom feeding" way. I find that the bottom feeders are the reason the more experienced translators get stuck in these situations. Yes I'm guilty for focusing on the one egg, but if low-balling the rates was not accepted by agencies with the 'good enough' quality mentality, then this would not happen to me or to anyone. Because there would be no "bottom feeding" minimum rate layer to choose from -- all decent translators would start at one rate and agencies would not be able to continue this pattern.
If I post on the blue board, I presume they will cut me off permanently. So I guess that isn't an option((
ps as a side note, this agency has nearly entirely new staff in many areas, including Finance. What used to be streamlined tax-time documentation is now a mess. It's ironic because they have rolled out all of these internal "faster easier" measures for everything from receiving POs, to receiving jobs, to cloud blah blah and in fact all of it (imvho) has made it much, much worse. And yes, they have a fairly new CEO.
[Edited at 2020-02-25 08:20 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Dan Lucas
United Kingdom
Local time: 23:45
Member (2014)
Japanese to English
| How could we justify a poor rating? | Feb 25, 2020 |
Catherine Pawlick wrote:
If I post on the blue board, I presume they will cut me off permanently. So I guess that isn't an option
I have every sympathy with your situation, but I can't help thinking the agency has done nothing wrong.
As others have said in this thread, they have every right to stop using you if they consider you too expensive, just as you have every right not to work with them if they don't accept your rates.
If anything, I think your (apparently rather dogged) pursuit of an explanation is likely to have been counter-productive. You cannot just demand to know why clients have made decisions of this kind. In your position I would have asked once, politely, and left it at that. After all, you are not an employee, you're an independent supplier. Their business is, well, their business, not yours.
Let's invert the situation. If you stopped working with an agency that was eager to do business with you because their rates were too low, and agency staff started phoning you or sending you emails and writing letters, and insisting that you explain why your rates are so high, how would you feel? Pressured? Hounded? Perhaps even bullied?
This agency has used your services in the past and presumably paid you what was agreed. Now they are no longer using your services. I can't see how their behavior merits a negative review on the Blue Board. That would seem to me to be unethical, so I am glad that you seem to have decided not to go down this route.
Regards,
Dan
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Catherine Pawlick
United States
Local time: 01:45
Russian to English
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TOPIC STARTER | not about failure to use services | Feb 25, 2020 |
Dan, the blue board rating (if I were to make another) would not be about failure to use my services, because as you note, it's a free world, anyone can use or not use anyone's services. It would be about the lack of transparency and the blatant lies about it. (they claimed that with lower rates I would get more jobs and in fact I did not) As well as the lack of management to reply to requests to REDUCE my rates. A five month delay in a response to 1 request is not professional.
| | | | Dan Lucas
United Kingdom
Local time: 23:45
Member (2014)
Japanese to English
Catherine Pawlick wrote:
As well as the lack of management to reply to requests to REDUCE my rates. A five month delay in a response to 1 request is not professional.
They asked you to cut your rates. You said no, and either then or later you made a request of some kind. They chose not to respond to that request, as is their right. That's no justification for giving them a bad rating for a mutual transaction.
You might think it's unprofessional - and I might agree - but how they conduct their trade outside their contractual obligations is none your business. The agency has every right not to talk to you, or to other freelancers, to work with whoever it wants to work with, even to run its own business into the ground.
If they have fulfilled the terms of their agreement with you, then they owe you nothing. This is what the "free" in freelancer is about: you have freedom to withdraw your services, and they have the freedom to stop making use of them - without explanation.
To respond belatedly to your original question, no, transparency is not a requirement, and in any case defining the extent of transparency would be problematic.
Regards,
Dan
| | | | Catherine Pawlick
United States
Local time: 01:45
Russian to English
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TOPIC STARTER | contractual obligations | Feb 25, 2020 |
Dan, but agreeing to a certain rate is part of a contractual obligation. Saying we will give you work if you give us X rate, that is a contract (in writing, in this case). And isn't responsiveness part of a professional rating, just as paying on time is? Surely the extent of blue board ratings is not just "they paid me as promised on time/at some point)? It has to do with communication, respect, etc, many other qualities as well, at least it seems to me to be so.
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The BB ratings aren't just about contractual obligations. The category ratings (E - 'This outsourcer is easy/enjoyable to work with', Q - 'This outsourcer considers quality in the way they manage projects', O - 'This outsourcer has straightforward on-boarding and documentation/contracting processes', T - 'This outsourcer adheres to agreed upon terms', and P - 'This outsourcer has reasonable payment terms') offer scope for rating agencies in situations like this. This particular agency appears to... See more The BB ratings aren't just about contractual obligations. The category ratings (E - 'This outsourcer is easy/enjoyable to work with', Q - 'This outsourcer considers quality in the way they manage projects', O - 'This outsourcer has straightforward on-boarding and documentation/contracting processes', T - 'This outsourcer adheres to agreed upon terms', and P - 'This outsourcer has reasonable payment terms') offer scope for rating agencies in situations like this. This particular agency appears to be failing, in this case, in at least E, and possibly Q, T and O as well.
[Edited at 2020-02-25 09:54 GMT]
[Edited at 2020-02-25 10:02 GMT]
[Edited at 2020-02-25 10:03 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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| To make a difference | Feb 25, 2020 |
Catherine Pawlick wrote:
...we will give you work if you give us X rate, that is a contract (in writing, in this case)...
I understand the blanket terms I enter into in the following manner: if we give you work, you give us X rate.
Philippe
| | | | Dan Lucas
United Kingdom
Local time: 23:45
Member (2014)
Japanese to English
| Do you really have a contract? | Feb 25, 2020 |
Catherine Pawlick wrote:
Saying we will give you work if you give us X rate, that is a contract (in writing, in this case).
If they promised to give you work, then that's a different matter, but it would be a surprising thing for any agency to do for a freelancer. Did they actually state that? It's one thing to say "We can work with you at rate X" and another to say "We will give you Y amount of work at rate X".
If they actually committed to assigning you a certain amount of work in writing, then you may have a stronger position (although even then you run into issues such as whether the contract was valid, such as whether you supplied any consideration). If you believe there to have been an outright breach of contract, speak to a lawyer.
And isn't responsiveness part of a professional rating, just as paying on time is?
If that is part of a specific transaction, sure (and thanks also to Alistair for his comments above on the categories on Blue Board). Maybe I am misinterpreting the situation, but I thought your complaint is that the agency has stopped dealing with you and no longer responds to your queries. To quote:
Understanding they wanted cuts, I wrote to their project managers attempting to lower my rates, recalling the earlier message. I wrote 5 different PMs. No one replied. I waited four months. No one replied. I wrote a letter to the company directors, no one replied.
That doesn't sound very specific to me. It sounds like they no longer want to work with you, so they're not responding. You're refusing to accept that and are demanding that they answer your questions. Just imagine what Blue Board would be like if not responding to inquiries or not working with freelancers became commonplace:
"I emailed Agency ABC with my CV, offering to work with them. They didn't respond. This is very unprofessional, so I gave them a 1 rating."
That kind of feedback wouldn't useful to me as a user of the Blue Board. It would make the whole thing unworkable.
I understand that you're unhappy, and that you feel hard done by, but you're potentially trying to penalise another business because they're not acting in accordance with your expectations outside the context of a transaction or an ongoing contract. You don't have the legal right to demand that they comply with your expectations of good behaviour, and while you might feel you have a moral right, the attempt to exercise that purported right clearly isn't helping you financially or emotionally. The world is full of disappointing clients. It's time to move on.
Michael's comments from earlier in the thread are spot on: "Please don't spend anymore of your valuable time on these reprobates. Look for new clients and don't put all your eggs in one basket."
Regards,
Dan
| | | | Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 23:45
Member (2008)
Italian to English
The Misha wrote: Tom in London wrote: Philippe Etienne wrote:
Granted, agencies need translators, but it seems that translators are rather soft business people…
Philippe We need to unionise, internationally. There are so many of us, each one struggling alone. Just think what we could achieve if we all came together, organised to uphold the value of translation and the value of our work. Rolling my eyes. I mean, really, I am. Besides, in the US, this would be (rightfully) construed as price collusion, which is against the law. I guess you'll have to do without us then.
OK I'll make sure you're not included in any future discussion of this.
| | | | Mervyn Henderson (X)
Spain
Local time: 00:45
Spanish to English
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Two reasons occur to me for not telling them they've been blacklisted:
Not telling them is a way of the agency not defining itself, because it's vile to tell someone they've been blacklisted, and it's a sure-fire way of needlessly winding someone up. And after all, if push comes to shove, they can simply spin them some other vaguely plausible yarn such as "Oh, yes, but you see, there's just no work around these days."
In The Godfather, Marlon Brando as don Vito tells another ... See more Two reasons occur to me for not telling them they've been blacklisted:
Not telling them is a way of the agency not defining itself, because it's vile to tell someone they've been blacklisted, and it's a sure-fire way of needlessly winding someone up. And after all, if push comes to shove, they can simply spin them some other vaguely plausible yarn such as "Oh, yes, but you see, there's just no work around these days."
In The Godfather, Marlon Brando as don Vito tells another mobster, Sollozzo, that he doesn't want to team up with him, but very politely wishes him all the best in his new venture. James Caan as his son Santino, however, gets riled, badmouths Sollozzo and tells him a few home truths. Later don Vito warns Santino never to let his true feelings show outside Da Family. And he's right. Father and son both think the same, i.e. that Sollozzo's a slimeball, but it never pays to come out and say so. Keeping quiet about the real reasons means you still have options, and doors may still remain open. Any gangster worth his salt will never tell you he's ordered a hit on you. One day you simply get hit. Like don Vito. And like Sollozzo, too, in retaliation.
It's also a simple strategy for inducing one of the most terrible feelings a human being can experience: uncertainty. Uncertainty will worry those translators into losing peace of mind, control, edge and, eventually, bargaining power, so they may come begging in the end. If they are told directly they've been ditched as too expensive, they will feel miffed and insulted and will get on their high horse, and will probably become so incensed that they will never reduce their rate (which is the ultimate objective). If they don't know about the blacklist, they may eventually go begging with a lower rate, but in that case it would be THE TRANSLATOR who lowered the rate of his or her own accord, not the agency.
Uncertainty is a frightening void no one wants to be in, because the silence can be deafening. George Bernard Shaw once snubbed Hilaire Belloc in the press, and Belloc's friends waited for weeks for a fitting reply, a venomous putdown, perhaps. But he said nothing. One of his friends eventually asked why he hadn't replied, and he said, "But I have replied. With a man like Shaw, the worst reply you can give him is silence." Silence, and irritating, enraging, disturbing uncertainty.
[Edited at 2020-02-25 11:17 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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Yolande Hivart
Austria
Local time: 00:45
Member (2016)
German to French
| This is down to pure business | Feb 25, 2020 |
Neither an agency that gave you a steady workload can expect you to keep up with them if the conditions deteriorate nor you as a translator, just on the fact that you regularly worked with them can expect them to remain your main source of income based on this fact up to your retirement
Yes this hurt, I had gone through this on the past and everyone I think had gone through this when they relied too much on a main client and lost him (for whatever reason).
The side I took when... See more Neither an agency that gave you a steady workload can expect you to keep up with them if the conditions deteriorate nor you as a translator, just on the fact that you regularly worked with them can expect them to remain your main source of income based on this fact up to your retirement
Yes this hurt, I had gone through this on the past and everyone I think had gone through this when they relied too much on a main client and lost him (for whatever reason).
The side I took when this happened to me was : well thank you for the lesson, I had been thinking too long as an employee and not enough as a self entrepreneur.
I think I had been blacklisted (I think only a naive or a psychopath would not find out why) and I blacklisted a few in my career. I take it as business, swallow the hard pill and double the efforts to find new clients. Companies evolve, you are evolving as well and it does not need to be on the same path. Once the hard time will be over of wondering where to find the pitance you took for granted, you will not think much anymore as why they ignore you.
When it hurted me I blacklisted in return who blacklisted me, did not beg for answers or excuses and moved on (that way i did eradicate the uncertainty). And so far with time I had always found again a greener mile. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Payment Practices? | Feb 25, 2020 |
Catherine Pawlick wrote:
Dan, but agreeing to a certain rate is part of a contractual obligation. Saying we will give you work if you give us X rate, that is a contract (in writing, in this case). And isn't responsiveness part of a professional rating, just as paying on time is? Surely the extent of blue board ratings is not just "they paid me as promised on time/at some point)? It has to do with communication, respect, etc, many other qualities as well, at least it seems to me to be so.
I believe BB is solely about paying on time as promised, but if you go to Payment Practices, you can write comments about your interaction with the agency, and that might make more sense in this case, as yes, getting paid on time is definitely NOT the only consideration I would make when working with an agency.
I would let this agency go - I certainly would not lower my rates. Whatever their issue is, they do have a right to stop giving you work, just as you have a right to stop working with them (I agree, the lack of transparency is infuriating, but the only solution to this is to dump them if you can't handle how they operate). And do you really want work from these people if they asked you to halve your rate after ten years of working with them?? If I accepted that, I'd just be resentful every time I did a job, and that's not a great way to feel running your own business.
| | | | Catherine Pawlick
United States
Local time: 01:45
Russian to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Alistair Gainey wrote:
The BB ratings aren't just about contractual obligations. The category ratings (E - 'This outsourcer is easy/enjoyable to work with', Q - 'This outsourcer considers quality in the way they manage projects', O - 'This outsourcer has straightforward on-boarding and documentation/contracting processes', T - 'This outsourcer adheres to agreed upon terms', and P - 'This outsourcer has reasonable payment terms') offer scope for rating agencies in situations like this. This particular agency appears to be failing, in this case, in at least E, and possibly Q, T and O as well.
[Edited at 2020-02-25 09:54 GMT]
[Edited at 2020-02-25 10:02 GMT]
[Edited at 2020-02-25 10:03 GMT]
Bingo.
And, great minds...))
Cheers.
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