| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7] > | English: Who needs the natives? Thread poster: IanW (X)
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| Seriously... | Jul 13, 2007 |
Marijke Mayer wrote:
I am a firm believer in just having one 'N' icon next to one's name at ProZ. I am flabbergasted to see that some people have as much as 3 (!) of such 'native' icons. By allowing this, I believe it brings down the quality of this site; nobody can seriously believe that!
Consider this: parents from two different Indian states with different local languages, but educated in English from primary/elementary school through university (OK, so we're talking 'privileged' or 'middle-class' here), now living in a third state with yet another language (local or Hindi). Neither speak each other's local language, so English (and Hindi?) spoken at home. Children educated in English but exposed at home to the two local languages of their parents, as well as English, at home and Hindi or third local language with their peers. Care to tell us what the children's native language is?
David
| | | | Francis Lee (X)
Local time: 23:18
German to English
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| Fake/self-deceiving "dual-natives" | Jul 13, 2007 |
David Sirett wrote:
Consider this: parents from two different Indian states with different local languages, but educated in English from primary/elementary school through university
Fair enough. While I'm aware of the complexities involved in somewhere like India, in Europe it's much more clear cut.
What many of us are concerned about the flagrant abuse of the system.
In the German-English pair, I'd say one or two (yes, literally) colleagues are genuinely dual-native.
The rest either
a) genuinely believe they are dual-native due to having "mixed" parents - these people I feel sorry for (because they have to be told that they are not in fact dual-native)
b) genuinely believe they are dual native because they e.g. have an English-speaking parent but grew up in Germany - ditto
c) mistakenly believe they are dual native because they think that spending a few years in an English-speaking country makes them a native-speaker
d) are simply lying
Yes, there indeed a few colleagues out there (i.e. Europe/US) with more than one mother tongue - but they are few and far between ...
| | | | larserik 
Sweden
Local time: 23:18
Albanian to Swedish
| What about source language in international standard for translating? | Nov 23, 2007 |
Recently, an international standard for translation agencies and their work was adopted. It's a commercial product and I have not read it or bought it. But the description I've seen says nothing about a standard of quality of the source text.
Right now I'm struggling with an International English text, 70000 words. It's primitive, it's vague, and this will have it's impact on the translation. My customer is willing to answer my questions, but I can't ask about every little doubt I have. An... See more Recently, an international standard for translation agencies and their work was adopted. It's a commercial product and I have not read it or bought it. But the description I've seen says nothing about a standard of quality of the source text.
Right now I'm struggling with an International English text, 70000 words. It's primitive, it's vague, and this will have it's impact on the translation. My customer is willing to answer my questions, but I can't ask about every little doubt I have. And he is not the author.
When this is finished I will write a letter to the standardization bodies, language academies and translation agency organizations, urging them to launch a campaign against non-native translations (from any language of course, but English is the most common victim - look at this sentence I dealt with last year: "Verify the bomb runs in the right address", meaning, "Check that the pump is rotating in the appropriate direction". Some of you will know which language the author was born to.).
In this particular assignment, 12 translators translate bad English into their mother tongues. Mere productivity reasons should lead to the decision 1. to have the translation to English done by a native speaker. 2. to distribute *good* English texts to the 12 translators.
You might think the campaign of mine is bound to fail. Well, if Don Quixote fought, why can't I?
(Sorry for my international language...) ▲ Collapse
| | | | moken
Local time: 22:18
English to Spanish
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| Don't worry - it only happens for some time until we get sorted out | Apr 25, 2008 |
Dear native English speakers,
I used to live in a small world of my own regarding my language skills; I mistakenly considered myself bilingual, dual native or what have you.
When I first landed at ProZ and created a profile for myself, I wasn't a paying member. Please someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to remember that back in those days you couldn't be a native speaker of two languages unless you put your money where your mouth was.
I thought it ... See more Dear native English speakers,
I used to live in a small world of my own regarding my language skills; I mistakenly considered myself bilingual, dual native or what have you.
When I first landed at ProZ and created a profile for myself, I wasn't a paying member. Please someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to remember that back in those days you couldn't be a native speaker of two languages unless you put your money where your mouth was.
I thought it over and declared my 'nativeness' in Spanish, despite the fact that I was born and brought up in the UK (albeit by Spanish speaking parents).
When I moved over here, my Spanish was far from native but over 25+ years in Spain, it slowly but surely overtook my English - despite the fact that still I spoke, read, wrote and listened to some English every day.
ProZ has helped and still helps me recognise my shortfalls in English. I realise I can't express myself with the ease and effortlessness of a true native. I like to think that I might be able to recover my 'original native language', perhaps after another 10 years or so living back in the UK. Even if I did, ProZ would never let me reflect the fact it in my profile.
However, I also realise that I can read, spell and use English grammar better than a fair number of native English speakers - not linguists, admittedly, but natives nonetheless. I didn't need to come to ProZ for that, since I spent a great many years liaising with 'natives' in the international money markets. I can quite easily read a Scotsman's post where others might have trouble making heads or tails of it. But all of this doesn't make me a native.
In in earlier my days at ProZ I did attempt to lend a hand (and prove my own competence to myself) in English monolingual questions. Of course, I made mistakes that were duly pointed out to me, I appreciate that.
Most users were indeed very kind and helpful. Nonetheless, others made it clear that my feedback was not appreciated. On a couple of occasions, I entered answers that were virtually duplicated shortly after by native English speakers who would duly win agrees from others. I insist, this was not everybody's case.
This permanent feeling of being unwelcome discouraged me, and I virtually stopped answering English mono q's altogether. Nowadays I very often also think twice before answering ES>EN questions - mostly I do so when I see clearly that the source language is the problem, even in those cases where the asker, for reasons oblivious to me, only targets only native English speakers to sort their problems out; I try to explain why I think I can help them.
I do agree with Francis in some respect: there are only a handful of true "dual natives" in my pair and some of them you rarely see around KudoZ. What I don't agree with is with the misconstrued idea that only a native speaker can sort out a language problem.
I feel that sometimes it's more a mater of "oi you, get out of here, the less people around, the better my chance of scoring on these questions."
But when I think twice about it, I realise I'm in the wrong - after all I'm sure the points are never an issue and that there's no space either for racist or xenophobe attitude in an international language forum.
Can-reopeningly,
Alvaro ▲ Collapse
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| Zealous guardians of the language | Apr 25, 2008 |
Thanks, Álvaro, for reviving this great thread, initiated by one of our most treasured former members, Ian Winick. Where have all the flowers gone?
It's really simply about writing well. Translators write, they don't speak their target language, and a good translator must be able to produce texts that the target audience won't immediately recognize as unnatural or ungrammatical French, German, English, Spanish, etc.
Not many people can write well in a language that th... See more Thanks, Álvaro, for reviving this great thread, initiated by one of our most treasured former members, Ian Winick. Where have all the flowers gone?
It's really simply about writing well. Translators write, they don't speak their target language, and a good translator must be able to produce texts that the target audience won't immediately recognize as unnatural or ungrammatical French, German, English, Spanish, etc.
Not many people can write well in a language that they didn't grow up speaking and writing. Educated native speakers study and practice writing in their mother tongues for many, many years, and they are probably avid readers who know the difference between good writing and poor writing.
Mats Wiman wrote:
"It (sorry) is, I am sorry to say, often used by so-called 'native speakers' about suggestions from 'less native speakers' and destroys the friendly atmosphere uphold in so many language pairs.
You are perfectly entitled to think it (maybe generating a better answer) but not to say it.
ALL suggestions are to be welcomed! Ugh!"
What is a "less native speaker"? What are "so-called native speakers"? A proposed translation is either up to educated native-speaker standards or it is not. Is KudoZ mainly about a friendly atmosphere? I'd say we should be polite, but it's mainly about professional standards in translation. If an answerer can't produce a target phrase or term that's up to professional standards of writing, we are entitled to say "sorry, this is not what a native speaker would say or write." We must not welcome all suggestions; we must reject suggestions that don't meet professional standards of writing.
Every now and then I venture a proposal from English into German, and I am not surprised if I get critiqued by zealous guardians of the German language. That's the way it should be. Translators must be perfectionists. ▲ Collapse
| | | | d_vachliot (X)
Local time: 00:18
Greek to English
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| Pride and Prejudice | May 21, 2008 |
Álvaro Blanch wrote:
However, I also realise that I can read, spell and use English grammar better than a fair number of native English speakers - not linguists, admittedly, but natives nonetheless.
Very well spoken, Alvaro.
I've been watching the English monolingual KudoZ for some time now, mainly because I'm interested in difficult translation problems and keeping abreast with developments in language, speech and translation.
Initially, I was rather timid and did not attempt to be anything more than a passive observer, mostly out of respect for native speakers. After all, this was their territory and people usually ARE a bit apprehensive of "strangers" or "intruders".
When on very few occasions I attempted to provide an answer that I was pretty sure of, I promptly discovered that the "native" environment was not particularly friendly.
Then, I wondered why on Earth would a non-native speaker want to participate in the English monolingual forum and make a fool of himself/herself, by displaying his/her ignorance openly and in public.
So far, I have been unable to find an answer to this question.
The funny thing is how many of the people that participate in the English monolingual KudoZ are not even qualified translators or linguists with proper education. Yet, they somehow deem it their prerogative and birthright to answer linguistic questions.
Let alone the fact that many native speakers give diametrically opposed answers to the same question, which is only natural of course, in this line of work where things are so open to interpretation. Yet, if a non-native speaker has already provided or attempts to provide an answer, albeit correct, he/she is immediately "disqualified" on grounds of "non-nativeness".
In other words, answers are judged not by their merit, but by the identity of the answerer.
This is from Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary:
prejudice:
2 a (1): preconceived judgment or opinion (2): an adverse opinion or leaning formed without just grounds or before sufficient knowledge b: an instance of such judgment or opinion c: an irrational attitude of hostility directed against an individual, a group, a race, or their supposed characteristics
Sincerely,
Dmitri
| | | | | Interesting perspective, Dimitris | May 22, 2008 |
Dimitris Vachliotis wrote:
I've been watching the English monolingual KudoZ for some time now, mainly because I'm interested in difficult translation problems and keeping abreast with developments in language, speech and translation.
Initially, I was rather timid and did not attempt to be anything more than a passive observer, mostly out of respect for native speakers. After all, this was their territory and people usually ARE a bit apprehensive of "strangers" or "intruders".
When on very few occasions I attempted to provide an answer that I was pretty sure of, I promptly discovered that the "native" environment was not particularly friendly.
Then, I wondered why on Earth would a non-native speaker want to participate in the English monolingual forum and make a fool of himself/herself, by displaying his/her ignorance openly and in public.
I found this thought-provoking, as my impression is that the English monolingual section is generally one of the friendliest and most cooperative around. But then, I am a native speaker.
Still, I took the time to have a look through the questions you'd answered and I really can't see what leads you to say that it's not very friendly - from what I can see, your suggestions have been met with at best "agrees" and at worst complete silence, and you've won your fair share of points in that section. I couldn't see any examples of unfriendliness directed towards you.
If on the other hand you're referring to other non-natives, then it has sometimes happened (there have also been examples of self-proclaimed natives being "outed", more or less aggressively). The reasons have been amply discussed on this thread, I expect.
You may not agree with them, and that's your prerogative. But do you really think that a reasonably well-educated and articulate adult native speaker - even if he doesn't have any training in linguistics or translation - won't have a better grasp of the subtleties and nuances of his own language than a non-native, however many years of study she's put in and/or years she's lived in a country where her "other" language is spoken? I'd say this holds true for all languages and almost every speaker. Sure, there may be exceptions - I've no doubt that most non-natives living in England now would be far more up to date with the latest slang than I am. But in general, the opinions of native speakers should be respected, especially when they're all singing from the same hymn sheet.
The only area where I have the temerity to contradict native Italians is when it comes to technical terminology in the English-Italian section, where my own expertise and the source texts I translate every day mean I am absolutely sure of the right term in Italian, because I see it all the time. And I've no doubt you could say the same in texts from Greek to English.
But I wouldn't presume to argue in the Italian monolingual section - and while I'm happy to welcome fluent non-natives in the English monolingual section, I do think they would be wise to respect the opinions of their native peers and not shout "prejudice".
[Edited at 2008-05-22 17:25]
| | | | d_vachliot (X)
Local time: 00:18
Greek to English
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| Pride and Prejudice II | May 23, 2008 |
Marie-Hélène Hayles wrote:
You may not agree with them, and that's your prerogative. But do you really think that a reasonably well-educated and articulate adult native speaker - even if he doesn't have any training in linguistics or translation - won't have a better grasp of the subtleties and nuances of his own language than a non-native, however many years of study she's put in and/or years she's lived in a country where her "other" language is spoken?
No, I don't.
There's nothing to substantiate a native speaker's linguistic superiority over a non-native speaker in this instance. Furthermore, English monolingual questions are not always purely linguistic in the strict sense of the term. Very often, they involve other skills that a native speaker wouldn't not necessarily possess, for instance a different cultural perspective.
Marie-Hélène Hayles wrote:
But I wouldn't presume to argue in the Italian monolingual section -
Neither would I, Marie-Helene and I never have. However, I do find the choice of the word "presume" quite interesting and most revealing in terms of the overall attitude.
Marie-Hélène Hayles wrote:
...and while I'm happy to welcome fluent non-natives in the English monolingual section, I do think they would be wise to respect the opinions of their native peers and not shout "prejudice".
[Edited at 2008-05-22 17:25]
Well, no. If that's how I feel and that's what I think, I will speak freely. If that makes you uncomfortable, then please accept my apologies.
However, you still haven't answered the questions raised in my previous post.
Thank you.
[Edited at 2008-05-23 12:31]
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| No need to apologise | May 23, 2008 |
We'll just have to agree to have different opinions on the matter, that's all.
The question of linguistic superiority doesn't really come into it - the point is, that a native speaker can usually say instantly whether a phrase or term is native or not, whether he/she left school at 16 or has a doctorate in linguistics. I think very few non-natives will ever have that gut instinct - I certainly haven't in Italian, although I too speak and write far better in Italian than do many nati... See more We'll just have to agree to have different opinions on the matter, that's all.
The question of linguistic superiority doesn't really come into it - the point is, that a native speaker can usually say instantly whether a phrase or term is native or not, whether he/she left school at 16 or has a doctorate in linguistics. I think very few non-natives will ever have that gut instinct - I certainly haven't in Italian, although I too speak and write far better in Italian than do many natives.
As for my use of the word "presume", I used it advisedly - I do think (speaking generally of course, I haven't seen any instance of this being applicable to you personally) that a non-native who argues with natives on matters of English - or any other language, come to that - usage is, on all but a minority of occasions, being presumptuous.
You don't. Fair enough.
I don't think there is prejudice against non-natives in the English monolingual section.
You do. Again, fair enough, although if you do see it you should point it out to a moderator, as it's surely against site rules. ▲ Collapse
| | | | d_vachliot (X)
Local time: 00:18
Greek to English
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| ΟΚ...no problem | May 23, 2008 |
Marie-Hélène Hayles wrote:
We'll just have to agree to have different opinions on the matter, that's all.
Yes, I can see your point now.
The truth is Marie that I value "native" feedback a lot and I certainly wouldn't presume to know better.
Thank you for your feedback.
| | | | adrian_r
Local time: 23:18
Swedish to English
+ ...
| "Native" speakers | Jun 11, 2008 |
I have no choice but to agree with the comments about a particular type of arrogance which surrounds non-natives' perceived command of the English language. It is even drawn out to the point where people declare two "native" languages - their own mother tongue and English based on the fact that they have lived in the US for 8 years or spent a lot of time overseas or seen a lot of English television, etc, etc.
I have travelled, lived and worked in various countries including Germany... See more I have no choice but to agree with the comments about a particular type of arrogance which surrounds non-natives' perceived command of the English language. It is even drawn out to the point where people declare two "native" languages - their own mother tongue and English based on the fact that they have lived in the US for 8 years or spent a lot of time overseas or seen a lot of English television, etc, etc.
I have travelled, lived and worked in various countries including Germany, France and Sweden. I have reached a high standard of written and verbal fluency in a number of languages - on occasion I have even been mistaken for a native speaker. Despite this I would never dream of calling myself a native speaker, because to be a native speaker requires that you were born with and grew up with the language, the children's stories, the cultural and historical references, a knowledge of old and new slang, loaded terminology and much more.
Native speakers may express themselves in a grammatically incorrect way, they may speak in incomplete sentences, they may make a whole host of other "mistakes" - but only a native speaker knows which "mistakes" lie within the realm of acceptable use of their own language, alternatively they know the result of breaching particular linguistic or grammatical conventions and may deliberately use this tool. Native speakers also tend to have a greater understanding of regional and national variations in their language.
To claim to possess all of this knowledge because one has studied and worked overseas for a period of time is little more than arrogance or, in the best case, ignorance. ▲ Collapse
| | | | adrian_r
Local time: 23:18
Swedish to English
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| ...a reservation | Jun 11, 2008 |
I do want to point out that I can appreciate the fact that some people may be fortunate enough to grow up with several languages and in fact be true natives of two or more languages.
What I fail to comprehend is those who genuinely claim to be native speakers after simply having lived and worked overseas for a period of time.
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d_vachliot (X)
Local time: 00:18
Greek to English
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| Only the natives - Is that true? | Jun 11, 2008 |
adrian_r wrote:
- but only a native speaker knows which "mistakes" lie within the realm of acceptable use of their own language,
No, not really.
alternatively they know the result of breaching particular linguistic or grammatical conventions and may deliberately use this tool.
Not, necessarily.
To claim to possess all of this knowledge because one has studied and worked overseas for a period of time is little more than arrogance or, in the best case, ignorance.
I totally agree. Just because someone has studied and worked overseas for a period of time doesn't make them native in that particular language and to claim otherwise would be arrogant and ignorant, indeed.
As it would also be to maintain that *only* native speakers can or should participate in the English monolingual KudoZ.
[Edited at 2008-06-11 12:58]
[Edited at 2008-06-11 12:58]
| | | | adrian_r
Local time: 23:18
Swedish to English
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| possibly not | Jun 15, 2008 |
Dimitris...your points are quite right, not all natives know more than about the linguistic features of a language than non-natives who have studied that language...This was my attempt to quantify why non-natives cannot claim to be natives but in the end I realise that it simply is not quantifiable.
I have no issue with non-natives in the English monolingual, as you say that would be arrogant and ignorant.
I think ultimately most enlightened individuals are aware of th... See more Dimitris...your points are quite right, not all natives know more than about the linguistic features of a language than non-natives who have studied that language...This was my attempt to quantify why non-natives cannot claim to be natives but in the end I realise that it simply is not quantifiable.
I have no issue with non-natives in the English monolingual, as you say that would be arrogant and ignorant.
I think ultimately most enlightened individuals are aware of their limitations and most are willing to help others in the quest to venture beyond those limitations - that is what Kudoz is for, it is a useful tool. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Paraphrasing the bard: "the truth will out the door"... | Feb 22, 2009 |
Just a little joke I have...
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