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May 17, 2012 15:35
11 yrs ago
Italian term

Deriva

Italian to English Art/Literary Art, Arts & Crafts, Painting
This is a modern artist introducing himself and his work. The exhibition is held near prehistoric caves not far from the seashore. I'm trying to find a word that conveys the meaning of seashore but also of drifting...
Here is the text:

"Con queste tribú primitive sento di condividere un forte senso della deriva.
La deriva é il luogo d'incontro tra la Terra e l'Acqua: il luogo di partenza e il luogo di arrivo."
Proposed translations (English)
4 drifting - drifts
4 +1 limbo
4 Land Adrift
4 perpetual rift
3 Watershed
3 being adrift

Discussion

Bruno De Angelis (asker) May 18, 2012:
There are times when I think it is not fair to give all the points to one person, but that's the rule I'm afraid... Thank you once again!
S Kelly May 18, 2012:
"the essence of driftwood, flotsam and jetsam" might convey the sense of "deriva" at the end of first sentence.


"ebb and flow"might be another option that could help in the translation.
James (Jim) Davis May 18, 2012:
For the second word "jetsam" by definition the stuff that drifts and gets washed up on the seashore.
Tony Shargool May 18, 2012:
word games Hi Bruno,
you are very welcome; other than simply 'giving a hand when one can spend the time, a further attraction of these linguistic challenges is the pleasure of playing with words. The variety of different suggestions - all viable interpretations - enhances the pleasure ! So don't thank us too much, I'm sure we all deeply enjoy 'scrabbling' to find the most suitable rendition !
Tony
Bruno De Angelis (asker) May 18, 2012:
Thank you, all of you! I was really overwhelmed this morning by the response to my question. It is a tough one, and I haven't yet decided on the best answer, but it is clear that I will have to use two different words (translating the same word into French was so easy...). If it helps to clarify the context I should add that the artist collects all the debris that the sea throws out onto the shore (bits of wood, shells, pebbles, plastic, metal, cans, even remains of barbie dolls...) and, using a special glue, assembles them into abstract sculptures...
James (Jim) Davis May 17, 2012:
@Oliver What the questioner said is this:
"I'm trying to find a word that conveys the meaning of seashore but also of drifting"
Perhaps it is me, but drifting and water automatically conjure up just where I wish I was right now, drifting along the beach into the water in the Seychelles. But apart from that, drifting is necessarily in water except when used metaphorically. However, without more news from the absent questioner we are speculating.
Oliver Lawrence May 17, 2012:
@Jim Hi Jim, well that is certainly one valid interpretation, but from what has been said by the questioner, there is no reason to be certain that the author did not mean something else.
Tony Shargool May 17, 2012:
Hi Bruno,
I feel the time-reference you supply is solely referred to the prehistoric caves... In fact, tribal populations can be relatively recent in origin,. If one thinks of the displaced populations in China or India,... in particular in the Sunderban archipelagus, where they live and survive 'The Hungry Tides' since several centuries.
James (Jim) Davis May 17, 2012:
@Oliver I think he has already given sufficient context. Prehistoric tribes are nomads, they move where the wind, tide and seasons take them and just as you drift in a current of water. The sea drifts into the land and then drifts out again.
James (Jim) Davis May 17, 2012:
@Annie In my experience, when I finish a piece on architecture or art and start a piece on finance and corporate law, the "big problem", is still there and sometimes it is even bigger, even a few billion euro bigger.
Often, even when you are certain of the meaning, it isn't easy to express it without a long explanation, or sometimes at all.
ANNIE BATTEN May 17, 2012:
In my experience this is the big problem with texts relating to art, philosophy & academia - as a translator you need to pin down the exact meaning to decide on how best to translate but people's thoughts, ideas or impressions are not always clearly definable. Sometimes finding a way to keep the same ambiguity or scope for different interpretations is possible and desirable but not always!
Oliver Lawrence May 17, 2012:
But "drifting" in what sense? A sense of listlessness? Of aimlessness? Of being at the mercy of the elements, especially the sea? Of blurred identity?
What is the artist getting at in the rest of the text? How does this relate to his work?
philgoddard May 17, 2012:
Ah, I see. Thanks.
S Kelly May 17, 2012:
It sounds like the writer is trying to convey a combination of "derivare" to issue from and "deriva" drift.
The place of origin is at the same time the place of departure. The place therefore, where you arrive and departure from.
philgoddard May 17, 2012:
Bruno As a native speaker, can you explain the connotations of the second "deriva"? Obviously the first one translates as "drift".
polyglot45 May 17, 2012:
coast and coasting ?

Proposed translations

2 hrs
Selected

drifting - drifts

... i share a strong sense of drifting.
The water drifts into the land where they meet: a place of departure and a place of arrival.

I think that semantically this artist can only mean to be moved by a current to have no control over direction, in short to drift. To say "Drifting is the place.." just doesn't work well at all in English, so change it a little, but keep the focus on drifting/deriva.


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Note added at 19 hrs (2012-05-18 10:55:52 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

In the light of he new context. For the second word you can use "Jetsam", which is by definition what is thrown into the sea to drift until it is washed up on the seashore.
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Thank you JIm!"
+1
11 mins

limbo

This would be one idea:

"lim·bo
noun,
1. ( often initial capital letter ) Roman Catholic Theology . a region on the border of hell or heaven, serving as the abode after death of unbaptized infants (limbo of infants) and of the righteous who died before the coming of Christ (limbo of the fathers or limbo of the patriarchs).
2. a place or state of oblivion to which persons or things are regarded as being relegated when cast aside, forgotten, past, or out of date: My youthful hopes are in the limbo of lost dreams.
3. an intermediate, transitional, or midway state or place.
4. a place or state of imprisonment or confinement."
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/limbo?s=t


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Note added at 13 mins (2012-05-17 15:49:02 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

You could also maybe go for abeyance, but with its usage, it may need fitting into structure:
"a·bey·ance   
1. temporary inactivity, cessation, or suspension: Let's hold that problem in abeyance for a while.
2. Law . a state or condition of real property in which title is not as yet vested in a known titleholder: an estate in abeyance."
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/abeyance?s=t
Peer comment(s):
agree philgoddard : Limbo is a very good idea. Abeyance I'm not so sure about - it's more about suspension of time than of place.
9 mins
Thank you.
neutral James (Jim) Davis : To be in limbo is to be nowhere, but to be alla deriva is to be moving randomly. They are close but nevertheless distinctly different meanings, and derivazione, which is a different word, is to be from somewhere and not to be nowhere.
1 hr
Something went wrong...
25 mins

Watershed

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/watershed

This could convey the dual notion of arrival and departure and includes the idea of drifting, water.
Not only is a "watershed" a critical juncture between two physical entities, it also represents metaphorically a turning point,a landmark.
Peer comment(s):
neutral philgoddard : This is a good idea, but it would only work for the second occurrence of "deriva".
16 mins
Something went wrong...
42 mins

Land Adrift

'Land Afloat' or Land Adrift' inspired by the Sunderbans, where tides change the scenario from water to earth to water, non-stop.

If you are very brave you could suggest 'floatingness' - a neologism used in some video-game;
Something went wrong...
42 mins

being adrift

I think it will be difficult to keep the second use of deriva as a noun without sounding awkward in English. I might go for a more liberal translation, something like With these primitive tribes I feel that I share a sense of being adrift. Being adrift is being in the place where the Earth and the Water meet: the point of departure and arrival

Limbo could work too I think ... ...I share a sense of being in limbo. Limbo is the place where... - Sounds a bit odd maybe to use limbo that way but I guess the source text is open to artistic interpretation!
Something went wrong...
28 mins

perpetual rift

sounds poetic enough, without invoking limbic oblivion :)

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Note added at 1 day20 mins (2012-05-18 15:56:25 GMT) Post-grading
--------------------------------------------------

They are not "jetsome" (which may also be perceived as very non-PC); they are not forgotten in limbo; nor are they "drifters" due to their "nomadic nature" as someone rather fancifuly thought up: what evinces from the text is that they are simply "littoral", that is, living in, and by, that spacial rift between water and the terra ferma.
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