Jun 11, 2022 11:44
1 yr ago
35 viewers *
German term

Widerruf eines Erben

German to English Bus/Financial Finance (general) Power of attorney
All,
I am translating a Bankvollmacht from Germany. Target audience is Australia.

The passage in question reads:
Diese Vollmacht erlischt nicht mit unserem Tode, bleibt vielmehr für unsere Erben in Kraft. Der Widerruf eines von mehreren Erben bringt die Vollmacht nur für den/die Widerrufende(n) zum Erlöschen; die Bank kann verlangen, dass der/die Widerrufende sich als Erbe ausweist.

The first half of the second sentence in the passage appears to describe the situation where one of several heirs revokes the power of attorney. But if this is the case, why does the sentence not read “Der Widerruf ***der Vollmacht*** eines von mehreren Erben…”? or “Der Widerruf ***durch*** einen von mehreren Erben…”?
In the second half of the second sentence in the passage, I cannot make sense of the expression “bringt die Vollmacht nur für den/die Widerrufende(n) zum Erlöschen.” I could understand it if it read “bringt nur die Vollmacht des/der Widerrufende(n) zum Erlöschen.”

My translation so far reads:
This power of attorney does not lapse with our death, but remains in force for our heirs. The revocation by one of several heirs causes the power of attorney to lapse only from the person or persons who revoked it; the bank may require the person who revokes it to prove that he/she is an heir.
However, my described difficulty in understanding the source text has me in great doubt of the correctness of my translation.

The wording appears to be commonly used as I have found it identical or very similar in the fine print of contract conditions from several banks or credit card providers.
https://www.die-erbrechtskanzlei.com/widerruf-einer-vollmach... discusses the situation of an inherited power of attorney and its revocation.

I will be very grateful for any comments.

Peter

Discussion

Björn Vrooman Jun 12, 2022:
But... ...that still seems to be tackling the issue from the wrong perspective. What this person would do is *resign* from the POA (or renounce their power):
https://thelawadvisory.com/how-to-remove-yourself-from-the-p...
https://lawpath.com.au/blog/can-you-resign-a-power-of-attorn...

Best
Björn Vrooman Jun 12, 2022:
Peter "I could understand it if it read 'bringt nur die Vollmacht des/der Widerrufende(n) zum Erlöschen.'"

It's because you interpreted this the wrong way. You aren't revoking the POA. The power of attorney remains in effect--but becomes essentially useless:
"Wird die Vollmacht nur von einem Miterben widerrufen, bleibt die Vollmacht gültig. Sie können dann von der Vollmacht nur noch mit dem widerrufenden Erben gemeinsam Gebrauch machen. Ihre Vertretungsbefugnis für die übrigen nicht widerrufenden Miterben bleibt bestehen."
https://bankenverband.de/blog/kontoinhaber-stirbt-was-geschi...

UK:
"This document will revoke a specific named person’s power to act on your behalf without affecting the rest of the document and the powers of the other named attorneys."
https://www.rochelegal.co.uk/powers-of-attorney-old/making-c...

AUS:
"You can do this by revoking the entire Power of Attorney (and then drawing up a new one), or by revoking the appointment of a specific attorney or attorneys."
https://www.supercentral.com.au/Revocation-of-an-Enduring-Po...

Best wishes
Margaret Marks Jun 11, 2022:
eines von mehreren This means revocation by one heir where there is more than one heir. Not odd. Not
'one or more heirs' but 'one of more than one heirs' or 'one of multiple heirs'. If there is only one heir, the problem doesn't arise in the same way.
To asker: your translation looks correct. i would not write 'lapse only *from* the person...' but 'lapse only *for* the person...'
Ramey Rieger (X) Jun 11, 2022:
The person who revokes the bank? :-)
Ramey Rieger (X) Jun 11, 2022:
eines von mehreren Seems odd to me.
Ramey Rieger (X) Jun 11, 2022:
Hello Peter! Legalese is not my specialty, but, strangely enough, I actually understand this simplified German: the power of attorney does not terminate upon our deaths, but remains effective for our heirs. Should one or more heirs revoke the power of attorney, said power of attorney is terminated only for those choosing to revoke it. The bank may request proof of heirship from them.

Proposed translations

+2
7 hrs
Selected

revocation of the post-mortem power-of-attorney by one heir only with respect to himself or herself

This post-mortem power of attorney does not expire with our (grantor's / testator's) death, but rather remains in force for our heirs. The revocation by one of our several heirs only terminates the post-mortem power-of attorney for that revoking heir (each heir can revoke the power of attorney only with respect to himself or herself); the bank can demand that the revoking heir identify himself or herself as an heir.

Family and Succession Law in Germany -
https://books.google.com › books
Saskia Lettmaier, ‎Moritz-Philipp Schulz · 2022 · ‎Law
After the death of the testator, the agent represents the heir or heirs so that each heir can revoke the power of attorney with respect to himself or herself.

in German:

Vollmachten, die über den Tod hinaus gehen - Erbrecht
https://www.advogarant.de › vollmacht·

Widerruflichkeit
Die transmortale Vollmacht kann jederzeit widerrufen werden, es sei denn, in einem der Vollmacht zugrunde liegenden Geschäftsbesorgungsvertrag ist etwas anderes vereinbart worden. Eine Generalvollmacht ist stets widerruflich.

Nach dem Erbfall steht das Widerrufsrecht den Erben zu. Im Falle einer Erbengemeinschaft kann jeder einzelne Erbe für seine Person die Vollmacht widerrufen. In diesem Fall kann der Bevollmächtigte noch immer die übrigen Erben vertreten, die nicht widerrufen haben.
Peer comment(s):

neutral AllegroTrans : "power of attorney" is not hyphenataed
1 hr
agree Adrian MM. : consider also for Erbe: inheritor, beneficiary and - on intestacy - a 'person entitled'.
11 hrs
Thanks, also for your timely peer comment.
agree Cillie Swart : seems plausible
12 days
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4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Selected automatically based on peer agreement."

Reference comments

6 hrs
Reference:

Im Falle einer Erbengemeinschaft kann jeder einzelne Erbe für seine Person die Vollmacht widerrufen.

Vollmachten, die über den Tod hinaus gehen - Erbrecht
https://www.advogarant.de › vollmacht·

Widerruflichkeit
Die transmortale Vollmacht kann jederzeit widerrufen werden, es sei denn, in einem der Vollmacht zugrunde liegenden Geschäftsbesorgungsvertrag ist etwas anderes vereinbart worden. Eine Generalvollmacht ist stets widerruflich.

Nach dem Erbfall steht das Widerrufsrecht den Erben zu. Im Falle einer Erbengemeinschaft kann jeder einzelne Erbe für seine Person die Vollmacht widerrufen. In diesem Fall kann der Bevollmächtigte noch immer die übrigen Erben vertreten, die nicht widerrufen haben.
Peer comments on this reference comment:

agree Adrian MM. : 'mit unserem Tode' connotes mutual wills made by spouses in each other's favo(u)r or a joint will signed by both of them. BTW, non-revocability is based on a 'controversial' Aussie case https://legalhelpdesklawyers.com.au/1937/09/02/birmingham-v-...
13 hrs
Thanks for your peer comment.
agree Björn Vrooman : Your German ref. is correct; your answer (post-mortem) isn't.
15 hrs
Thanks for your peer comment.
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