much as I light of chaps

English translation: the price depends on how much luck I have finding customers

09:19 Mar 10, 2024
English language (monolingual) [PRO]
Other / The Spy by Cooper
English term or phrase: much as I light of chaps
I'm curious about the meaning of this phrase. The context follow below. Is it an idiom or slang?
Thank you in advance for interpreting it for me.

Caesar had now selected a piece of calico, in which the gaudy colors of yellow and red were contrasted on a white ground, and, after admiring it for several minutes, he laid it down with a sigh, as he exclaimed, “Berry pretty calico.”

“That,” said Sarah; “yes, that would make a proper gown for your wife, Caesar.”

“Yes, Miss Sally,” cried the delighted black, “it make old Dinah heart leap for joy—so berry genteel.”

“Yes,” added the peddler, quaintly, “that is only wanting to make Dinah look like a rainbow.”

Caesar eyed his young mistress eagerly, until she inquired of Harvey the price of the article.

“Why, much as I light of chaps,” said the peddler.

“How much?” demanded Sarah in surprise.

“According to my luck in finding purchasers; for my friend Dinah, you may have it at four shillings.”
Sterk
Ukraine
Local time: 08:54
Selected answer:the price depends on how much luck I have finding customers
Explanation:
The meaning is essentially explained in his response to Sarah's How much?, i.e.
According to my luck in finding purchasers.

to light of - to come by chance, fall or happen (upon something)



https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=JywNaBrw2o4C&pg=PA3447&d...

If before their goods are all sold, they can light of Chapmen to buy their Ships, they will gladly sell them also, at least some of them, if any Merchant will buy;
https://ota.bodleian.ox.ac.uk/repository/xmlui/bitstream/han...

chap - chapman, buyer, purchaser, customer

chap (n.)
1570s, "customer," short for obsolete chapman in its secondary sense "purchaser, trader" (also see cheap).
https://www.etymonline.com/word/chap

Additional references/examples


https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=CiVDAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA313&dq...


https://www.newspapers.com/article/the-liberator/2281193/

the same day James Crabtree of Halifax and Haily the Inspector of Bradford came with a large Purse of Gold to my House and told me they would sell It for two and twenty Shillings for a Guinea. I told them I did not meddle with such Things Crabtree said he sold all he had and would do ; ! told him he might light of Chaps in a many Places by all Reports so we parted ;
https://archive.org/stream/yorkshirecoiner00lawsgoog/yorkshi...

It is now less than thirty years since dairymen stumbled into the practice of co-peration in the business of making-cheese. Previous to that time cheese-making in this country was, to say the least, a crude affair. Every farmer ran his own factory, according to his own peculiar notion, and disposed of his products as he could "light on" chaps.
https://www.gutenberg.org/files/29665/29665-h/29665-h.htm
Selected response from:

Alison MacG
United Kingdom
Local time: 06:54
Grading comment
Thank you very much Alison; one thing is more of less clear: one had better avoid using this phrase in the contemporary business context to answer the question about the cost of goods/services... unless their counterpart is familiar with JFC's works. Thanks a lot again!
4 KudoZ points were awarded for this answer



SUMMARY OF ALL EXPLANATIONS PROVIDED
3 +4the price depends on how much luck I have finding customers
Alison MacG
4 +2the price depends on the circumstances
philgoddard
3as much as I hope to get
Robert Farren
3 -1much as I light of chaps
TAMER DONOVAN ANANI
2the same as the number of times I show/exhibit chaps
Clauwolf
Summary of reference entries provided
Another example
philgoddard

Discussion entries: 5





  

Answers


32 mins   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5 peer agreement (net): -1
much as I light of chaps


Explanation:
This is a very old novel written in a particular language akin to UK Cockney Rhyme. The author uses words like 'rainbow' and 'light of chaps' in an absurd context. However, the context indicates the purchasing of a pair of 'chaps', leather trousers opened out at the crotch for horseriding. I would keep the original as it is and even use this language to represent the strange personality of the peddler. Like Orwell and Burgess, English literature is filled with made-up expressions or borrowed from foreign languages.

Example sentence(s):
  • Stefani donned a black and white look that featured light pink satin open chaps — and her platinum blonde hair was seen in a high ponytail.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Spy_(Cooper_novel)
    https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/chap
TAMER DONOVAN ANANI
Italy
Local time: 07:54
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
disagree  JaneD: It's an 1821 American novel, the language used is clearly nothing to do with the UK - but it is slang. For me, "rainbow" is used in a normal way here, but I can't make sense of "I light of chaps". Could be the garment, could be something else.
18 mins
Login to enter a peer comment (or grade)

1 hr   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5
much as i light of chaps
as much as I hope to get


Explanation:
Having scoured the online version of the OED, my only hypothesis is that the verb is "lite of", meaning "expect, wait, delay".
The OED also links to a dictionary website called "Middle English compendium", where the sense of the ME verb līten is given more broadly as "(a) To rely; trust in (sth.); to, expect or hope to (get sth.); (b) to delay, tarry, wait". The sense "to hope to get (a price" would fit well enough in the present sentence.

According to wiktionary, ME līten is a loan from Old Norse hlíta (with modern descendants in Icelandic, Swedish and Danish), and like many Old Norse borrowings it could have survived for centuries as a dialectal term in the North of England, long enough to make its way into Fenimore Cooper's 19th-century American English.

As for "chaps", it's anybody's guess if this refers to "leather riding apparel" or "fellows, guys".

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2024-03-10 10:53:41 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

PS: Having now re-read the passage from the novel, I would say that "as much as I hope to get for..." makes perfect sense given the dialogue that takes place in the last three sentences.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 hr (2024-03-10 10:54:28 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

And my money is on "chaps" meaning "riding apparel".



    https://www.oed.com/dictionary/lite_v1?tab=meaning_and_use#38959312
    https://quod.lib.umich.edu/m/middle-english-dictionary/dictionary/MED25793
Robert Farren
Ireland
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 4

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
neutral  philgoddard: I'm not clear what you mean by 'as much as I hope to get', or the connection with riding apparel.
2 hrs
Login to enter a peer comment (or grade)

3 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 2/5Answerer confidence 2/5
much as i light of chaps
the same as the number of times I show/exhibit chaps


Explanation:
:) According to the context

Clauwolf
Local time: 02:54
Native speaker of: Native in PortuguesePortuguese
PRO pts in category: 36
Login to enter a peer comment (or grade)

4 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 4/5Answerer confidence 4/5 peer agreement (net): +2
the price depends on the circumstances


Explanation:
Here's an explanation. I don't know where it's from, but it could be James Fenimore Cooper again.

A child could have purchased half their stock on as favorable terms as the shrewdest man in the place. Mr. Jessup, on the contrary, varied as he could light of chaps, that is, according to circumstances.
http://www.bookrags.com/ebooks/16272/64.html#gsc.tab=0



--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 6 hrs (2024-03-10 15:36:18 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Could it be something to do with this?

'The use of “chap” [to mean 'man'] is a shortening of “chapman,” an old term for a trader or dealer. The word was céapmann in Old English, where céapian meant to buy and sell, and céap meant bargaining. Yes, those Anglo-Saxon words are ancestors of our adjective “cheap,” which as you know may describe something that’s a bargain.'
http://www.grammarphobia.com/blog/2019/05/chap.html



philgoddard
United States
Native speaker of: English
PRO pts in category: 44
Notes to answerer
Asker: Thank you, Philgoddard; I think you suggestion is pretty much close to the truth.


Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Robert Farren: Yup, I think this is it. "Light as chaps" = "according to circumstances".
9 mins
  -> Thanks. It's very obscure, and could be a term invented or misunderstood by the author.

agree  Stanislaw Czech, MCIL CL
6 hrs
Login to enter a peer comment (or grade)

1 day 8 hrs   confidence: Answerer confidence 3/5Answerer confidence 3/5 peer agreement (net): +4
the price depends on how much luck I have finding customers


Explanation:
The meaning is essentially explained in his response to Sarah's How much?, i.e.
According to my luck in finding purchasers.

to light of - to come by chance, fall or happen (upon something)



https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=JywNaBrw2o4C&pg=PA3447&d...

If before their goods are all sold, they can light of Chapmen to buy their Ships, they will gladly sell them also, at least some of them, if any Merchant will buy;
https://ota.bodleian.ox.ac.uk/repository/xmlui/bitstream/han...

chap - chapman, buyer, purchaser, customer

chap (n.)
1570s, "customer," short for obsolete chapman in its secondary sense "purchaser, trader" (also see cheap).
https://www.etymonline.com/word/chap

Additional references/examples


https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=CiVDAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA313&dq...


https://www.newspapers.com/article/the-liberator/2281193/

the same day James Crabtree of Halifax and Haily the Inspector of Bradford came with a large Purse of Gold to my House and told me they would sell It for two and twenty Shillings for a Guinea. I told them I did not meddle with such Things Crabtree said he sold all he had and would do ; ! told him he might light of Chaps in a many Places by all Reports so we parted ;
https://archive.org/stream/yorkshirecoiner00lawsgoog/yorkshi...

It is now less than thirty years since dairymen stumbled into the practice of co-peration in the business of making-cheese. Previous to that time cheese-making in this country was, to say the least, a crude affair. Every farmer ran his own factory, according to his own peculiar notion, and disposed of his products as he could "light on" chaps.
https://www.gutenberg.org/files/29665/29665-h/29665-h.htm

Alison MacG
United Kingdom
Local time: 06:54
Native speaker of: Native in EnglishEnglish
PRO pts in category: 4
Grading comment
Thank you very much Alison; one thing is more of less clear: one had better avoid using this phrase in the contemporary business context to answer the question about the cost of goods/services... unless their counterpart is familiar with JFC's works. Thanks a lot again!

Peer comments on this answer (and responses from the answerer)
agree  Daryo: Impressive research!
9 hrs
  -> Thanks, Daryo

agree  Toni Castano: Your research is truly admirable, but why then only a middle confidence level in view of the conclusive evidence you have posted to sustain your answer?
14 hrs
  -> Thanks, Toni. 3 is my default level here if I post an answer based on research alone. If I had been able to find a good reference for the whole phrase light of chaps, explaining how it became a set expression or saying I would have put 4.

agree  Björn Vrooman: Cf. "Against the Profit Motive" (2013) by N. R. Parillo (p. 132): "...'as they could light on chaps' [i.e., as they could attract customers]" and "Englisch-deutsches Supplement-Lexikon" by A. Hoppe (p. 64) for some more intriguing insights.
17 hrs
  -> Thanks, Björn. I too found the Hoppe reference interesting, but decided against posting it here in the EN monolingual section.

agree  Yvonne Gallagher: well done on the research and Thanks!
9 days
  -> Thanks, Yvonne
Login to enter a peer comment (or grade)




Reference comments


3 hrs peer agreement (net): +2
Reference: Another example

Reference information:
This is from The Redskins, another novel by the same author, James Fenimore Cooper. I'm still not clear what it means.

"Have you heard what the tenants of Ravensnest aim at, in particular?"

"They want to get Hugh's lands, that's all; nothing more, I can assure you."

"On what conditions, pray?" demanded I.

"As you ***'light of chaps***,' to use a saying of their own. Some even profess a willingness to pay a fair price."

"But I do not wish to sell for even a fair price. I have no desire to part with property that is endeared to me by family feeling and association. I have an expensive house and establishment on my estate, which obtains its principal value from the circumstance that it is so placed that I can look after my interests with the least inconvenience to myself. What can I do with the money but buy another estate? and I prefer this that I have."
http://textbase.scriptorium.ro/cooper/the_redskins_2/chapter...

philgoddard
United States
Native speaker of: English
PRO pts in category: 44

Peer comments on this reference comment (and responses from the reference poster)
agree  Robert Farren: This seems to show that we're actually dealing with an expression "light of chaps". There's another example of it online from the Continental Monthly, July 1862, see below.
11 mins
agree  Alison MacG
1 day 4 hrs
Login to enter a peer comment (or grade)



Login or register (free and only takes a few minutes) to participate in this question.

You will also have access to many other tools and opportunities designed for those who have language-related jobs (or are passionate about them). Participation is free and the site has a strict confidentiality policy.

KudoZ™ translation help

The KudoZ network provides a framework for translators and others to assist each other with translations or explanations of terms and short phrases.


See also:
Term search
  • All of ProZ.com
  • Term search
  • Jobs
  • Forums
  • Multiple search