Glossary entry (derived from question below)
May 25, 2017 09:40
6 yrs ago
1 viewer *
French term
assiette
French to English
Other
Archaeology
Les défenses du port ott
Sa défense interne est structurée en deux entités : l’une linéaire, l’autre ponctuelle.
La première est formée par les nouveaux et imposants remparts, ponctués de bastions et percés de portes, cernant la ville et élargissant son emprise sur les collines.
La seconde est composée de deux éléments majeurs de défense, situés diamétralement opposés aux angles du trapèze de son assiette, formé sur la pente des coteaux.
La première est formée par les nouveaux et imposants remparts, ponctués de bastions et percés de portes, cernant la ville et élargissant son emprise sur les collines.
La seconde est composée de deux éléments majeurs de défense, situés diamétralement opposés aux angles du trapèze de son assiette, formé sur la pente des coteaux.
Proposed translations
(English)
| 4 | site |
Charles Davis
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| 4 +1 | footprint |
B D Finch
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| 3 | way x is lying, angle of lie, |
Nikki Scott-Despaigne
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| 2 +1 | basic layout |
Tony M
|
Change log
May 27, 2017 12:37: Charles Davis Created KOG entry
Proposed translations
7 hrs
Selected
site
I think it's simply this. "Port ott" is presumably a truncated version of the heading of your last question, "Les défenses du port ottoman d’Alger. (1530-1830)":
http://www.proz.com/kudoz/french_to_english/archaeology/6332...
So we're talking about Algiers in the Ottoman period.
The trapezium refers to the old town of Algiers itself; the following is a translation of a description by Théophile Gautier, which must date from not many decades after it passed from Ottoman to French rule:
"A whitish blur, cut into a trapezium, and dotted with silver sparkles—each one of them a country house—began to be drawn against the dark hills: this is Algiers, Al-Djezair, as the Arabs call it. We approach; around the trapezium, two ocre-colored ravines define the lower edges of the slopes, and shimmer with such a lively light that they seem as though they are ends to two sun torrents: these are the trenches. The walls, strangely crenellated, ascend the height of the slope."
http://publishing.cdlib.org/ucpressebooks/view?docId=ft8c600...
This same source says: "The term casbah refers to the ancient core of Algiers, the triangular-shaped town carved into the hills facing the Mediterranean (Fig. 2)."
But the plan shows that it is not a triangle but a trapezium: a triangle with the point chopped off, as it were. It's the area marked (1):
http://publishing.cdlib.org/ucpressebooks/view?docId=ft8c600...
So "son assiette" means the "assiette" of the town of Algiers. And the "assiette" of a town is the same as its "emplacement": its site.
"Assiette (n.f) viendrait de l'ancien français “siet” qui lui est lui même dérivé du latin “situs” qui signifie situé. On parle donc de l'assiette d'une ville pour parler de son emplacement topographique"
http://brouillaminiscribbles.tumblr.com/post/64102944307/ass...
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Note added at 8 hrs (2017-05-25 17:50:34 GMT)
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Is your text pre-twentieth century? I am pretty sure the sense of "assiette" is the one I've suggested, but it may be a bit archaic. It's not present as such in the Trésor, which Nikki has cited, but it is definition 2 of assiette in Littré:
"Position topographique d'une maison, d'une ville, etc. Assiette d'un lieu. Cette ville a une assiette favorable. Choisir l'assiette du camp."
https://www.littre.org/definition/assiette
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Note added at 21 hrs (2017-05-26 07:09:38 GMT)
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The meaning of "assiette" I'm proposing is actually still current. It is meaning 3 in the current (9th) edition of the Academy dictionary:
"3. Emplacement servant de base à une construction. L'assiette d'un camp, d'un château, d'une ville. TECHN. L'assiette d'une voie ferrée, d'une route, la surface occupée par cette voie, cette route et leurs parties accessoires."
http://atilf.atilf.fr/dendien/scripts/generic/cherche.exe?15...
I think "site" is the natural translation for this, potentially embracing both the position and the terrain.
This goes right back to the first Academy dictionary (1694):
"Il se dit aussi de la situation d'une maison, d'une ville, d'une forteresse. Cette maison est en belle assiette. l'assiette de cette place est avantageuse."
http://artflx.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/dicos/pubdico1look.pl?str...
Have a look at the way "assiette" is used in this article from Viollet-Le-Duc's Dictionnaire raisonné de l’architecture française du XIe au XVIe siècle (1854-68):
https://fr.wikisource.org/wiki/Dictionnaire_raisonné_de_l’ar...
http://www.proz.com/kudoz/french_to_english/archaeology/6332...
So we're talking about Algiers in the Ottoman period.
The trapezium refers to the old town of Algiers itself; the following is a translation of a description by Théophile Gautier, which must date from not many decades after it passed from Ottoman to French rule:
"A whitish blur, cut into a trapezium, and dotted with silver sparkles—each one of them a country house—began to be drawn against the dark hills: this is Algiers, Al-Djezair, as the Arabs call it. We approach; around the trapezium, two ocre-colored ravines define the lower edges of the slopes, and shimmer with such a lively light that they seem as though they are ends to two sun torrents: these are the trenches. The walls, strangely crenellated, ascend the height of the slope."
http://publishing.cdlib.org/ucpressebooks/view?docId=ft8c600...
This same source says: "The term casbah refers to the ancient core of Algiers, the triangular-shaped town carved into the hills facing the Mediterranean (Fig. 2)."
But the plan shows that it is not a triangle but a trapezium: a triangle with the point chopped off, as it were. It's the area marked (1):
http://publishing.cdlib.org/ucpressebooks/view?docId=ft8c600...
So "son assiette" means the "assiette" of the town of Algiers. And the "assiette" of a town is the same as its "emplacement": its site.
"Assiette (n.f) viendrait de l'ancien français “siet” qui lui est lui même dérivé du latin “situs” qui signifie situé. On parle donc de l'assiette d'une ville pour parler de son emplacement topographique"
http://brouillaminiscribbles.tumblr.com/post/64102944307/ass...
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Note added at 8 hrs (2017-05-25 17:50:34 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Is your text pre-twentieth century? I am pretty sure the sense of "assiette" is the one I've suggested, but it may be a bit archaic. It's not present as such in the Trésor, which Nikki has cited, but it is definition 2 of assiette in Littré:
"Position topographique d'une maison, d'une ville, etc. Assiette d'un lieu. Cette ville a une assiette favorable. Choisir l'assiette du camp."
https://www.littre.org/definition/assiette
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 21 hrs (2017-05-26 07:09:38 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
The meaning of "assiette" I'm proposing is actually still current. It is meaning 3 in the current (9th) edition of the Academy dictionary:
"3. Emplacement servant de base à une construction. L'assiette d'un camp, d'un château, d'une ville. TECHN. L'assiette d'une voie ferrée, d'une route, la surface occupée par cette voie, cette route et leurs parties accessoires."
http://atilf.atilf.fr/dendien/scripts/generic/cherche.exe?15...
I think "site" is the natural translation for this, potentially embracing both the position and the terrain.
This goes right back to the first Academy dictionary (1694):
"Il se dit aussi de la situation d'une maison, d'une ville, d'une forteresse. Cette maison est en belle assiette. l'assiette de cette place est avantageuse."
http://artflx.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/dicos/pubdico1look.pl?str...
Have a look at the way "assiette" is used in this article from Viollet-Le-Duc's Dictionnaire raisonné de l’architecture française du XIe au XVIe siècle (1854-68):
https://fr.wikisource.org/wiki/Dictionnaire_raisonné_de_l’ar...
Peer comment(s):
| neutral |
Nikki Scott-Despaigne
: This could become an agree. It is in the etymology of the term. I had not noticed your post and have just added a line on words with "ass" (included "ass"). ;-) Also "siège" for "seat" (same sound as FR "site"). (Champagne, - aigne, Despaigne, -agne).
1 hr
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Thanks, Nikki. I think it may depend on the date of the text.
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4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
Comment: "Although originally I was tempted to use the 'basic layout' answer suggested, I am going to choose this suggestion. The context of all your suggestions does fit in with the article. Many thanks for the in-depth suggestions and the very apt sources. Most grateful. "
+1
9 hrs
footprint
That's the usual translation of "assiette" in this sort of context. It isn't the same as "site" because it means the land actually under the built structure(s) and its shape.
projects.nexus-heritage.com/en/project/802/
An Archaeological Assessment. ... within the footprint of the Roman legionary fortress in Chester triggered the need for an archaeological assessment taking into ...
http://www.dayofarchaeology.com/gearing-up-for-public-archae...
https://goo.gl/ywTxll
This program, co-run by Parks Canada and the Fortress Louisbourg Association, allows us to continue excavation within the footprint of the reconstructed site while giving archaeology enthusiasts an opportunity to work on a dig at a great site and learn about historical archaeology.
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Note added at 9 hrs (2017-05-25 18:53:59 GMT)
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The term "footprint" is also used for the built-up area of a town, as well as for individual buildings or complexes of buildings.
dro.deakin.edu.au/view/DU:30083484
brutontowncouncil.gov.uk/policies/planning-policy/It is probable that meeting this target will extend the footprint of the town into land that is traditionally seen as agricultural.
https://www.westsussex.gov.uk/media/2105/crowborough_eus_rep... of the pre-1939 footprint of the town. A clearer example of post-1945 development within an open space almost entirely surrounded by the earlier town ...
projects.nexus-heritage.com/en/project/802/
An Archaeological Assessment. ... within the footprint of the Roman legionary fortress in Chester triggered the need for an archaeological assessment taking into ...
http://www.dayofarchaeology.com/gearing-up-for-public-archae...
https://goo.gl/ywTxll
This program, co-run by Parks Canada and the Fortress Louisbourg Association, allows us to continue excavation within the footprint of the reconstructed site while giving archaeology enthusiasts an opportunity to work on a dig at a great site and learn about historical archaeology.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 9 hrs (2017-05-25 18:53:59 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
The term "footprint" is also used for the built-up area of a town, as well as for individual buildings or complexes of buildings.
dro.deakin.edu.au/view/DU:30083484
brutontowncouncil.gov.uk/policies/planning-policy/It is probable that meeting this target will extend the footprint of the town into land that is traditionally seen as agricultural.
https://www.westsussex.gov.uk/media/2105/crowborough_eus_rep... of the pre-1939 footprint of the town. A clearer example of post-1945 development within an open space almost entirely surrounded by the earlier town ...
Note from asker:
| I think I agree with Charles on this. Also, I have translated a later occurrence of 'emprise' as 'footprint' in the following sentence: Ce môle qui au XVIIIe siècle faisait 500 pas de long, est renforcé par un autre de même emprise, allant du nord au sud et couvrant le port. |
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
Tony M
: Yes, which brings us back to the notion of 'emprise'.
27 mins
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Thanks Tony
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| neutral |
Charles Davis
: In archaeology, "footprint" is the area formerly occupied by something that is no longer there (as in both your examples). The town planning usage is out of place here. And "site" means the land on which something is built.
1 hr
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Do you have support for that? I understand "footprint" as being more precise, while "site" is more vague and can be the whole area owned or searched, with boundaries defined somewhat arbitrarily.
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| neutral |
Nikki Scott-Despaigne
: I follow Charles on this one.
3 hrs
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4 hrs
Nikki Scott-Despaigne
Native in English
Psychologist, Court-certified legal
Native in: English 
Works in: French to English
Related KudoZ points
:
35
way x is lying, angle of lie,
"...diamétralement opposés aux angles du trapèze de son assiette, formé sur la pente des coteaux."
I know this term from a marine context, where it describes the way a boat sits in the water, how level it is in relation to 180°. You probably know the term "trim"; that is "assiette" in French marine speak. I think the term is used in aeronautical contexts too. Only a small stpe from there to the EN flat, plate and the FR plat and assiette!
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Note added at 4 hrs (2017-05-25 13:42:54 GMT)
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no idea what "port ott" means though, so I am fumbling to get the context here.
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Note added at 4 hrs (2017-05-25 13:44:47 GMT)
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I am fairly confident though that it is this rather ordinary meaning of "assiette", given that there is the "trapèze" and "angles".
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Note added at 4 hrs (2017-05-25 13:45:49 GMT)
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This dictionary entry could probably help.
http://www.cnrtl.fr/lexicographie/assiette
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Note added at 4 hrs (2017-05-25 13:46:28 GMT)
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Think of the tax office and the meaning of "assiette" there too, which is about the base. ;-)
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Note added at 8 hrs (2017-05-25 18:13:40 GMT)
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"Assiette" is not really about layout. It is about how elements fit together, about how an element "sits". (Ass(iette), ass(eoir), ass... tiens!)
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Note added at 8 hrs (2017-05-25 18:14:42 GMT)
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Sorry, not "not really", I should say "not just" about layout.
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Note added at 12 hrs (2017-05-25 22:04:36 GMT)
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Inspired by Charles' post, I've just checked the CNRTL for "site": http://www.cnrtl.fr/lexicographie/site
Very near towards the end of the entry, is this text:
"1708 site (De Piles, Cours de peinture, p. 205 ds Fonds Barbier: Le mot de site signifie la vûe, la situation et l'assiette d'une contrée. Il vient de l'Italien sito, et nos peintres l'ont fait passer en France). I empr. au lat. situs « emplacement, situation », dér. de sinere « poser, installer ». II prob. empr. à l'ital. sito « situation, lieu » (dep. 1313-19, Dante ds Tomm.-Bell.)."
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Note added at 12 hrs (2017-05-25 22:16:18 GMT)
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Interesting document where the first two uses of "assiette" seem to refer to "site", or something close: http://www.inrap.fr/sites/inrap.fr/files/atoms/files/inrap-g...
Institut national de recherches archéologiques préventives (INRAP).
Guide pratique de l'aménageur.
L’aménagement du territoire et l’archéologie.
On the matter of "diagnostic archéologique":
(Page 3)
"Toutefois, la prescription de diagnostic n’est pas systématique : les travaux projetés peuvent ne présenter aucune atteinte notable au patrimoine connu ou présumé ; l’aménageur peut également procéder à des modifications (assiette du projet, aménagement technique) afin de rendre compatible sa réalisation avec la sauvegarde du patrimoine archéologique".
The following two uses seem to be to do with basis for the calculation of a payment.
I know this term from a marine context, where it describes the way a boat sits in the water, how level it is in relation to 180°. You probably know the term "trim"; that is "assiette" in French marine speak. I think the term is used in aeronautical contexts too. Only a small stpe from there to the EN flat, plate and the FR plat and assiette!
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Note added at 4 hrs (2017-05-25 13:42:54 GMT)
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no idea what "port ott" means though, so I am fumbling to get the context here.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 4 hrs (2017-05-25 13:44:47 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
I am fairly confident though that it is this rather ordinary meaning of "assiette", given that there is the "trapèze" and "angles".
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 4 hrs (2017-05-25 13:45:49 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
This dictionary entry could probably help.
http://www.cnrtl.fr/lexicographie/assiette
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 4 hrs (2017-05-25 13:46:28 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Think of the tax office and the meaning of "assiette" there too, which is about the base. ;-)
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 8 hrs (2017-05-25 18:13:40 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
"Assiette" is not really about layout. It is about how elements fit together, about how an element "sits". (Ass(iette), ass(eoir), ass... tiens!)
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 8 hrs (2017-05-25 18:14:42 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Sorry, not "not really", I should say "not just" about layout.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 12 hrs (2017-05-25 22:04:36 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Inspired by Charles' post, I've just checked the CNRTL for "site": http://www.cnrtl.fr/lexicographie/site
Very near towards the end of the entry, is this text:
"1708 site (De Piles, Cours de peinture, p. 205 ds Fonds Barbier: Le mot de site signifie la vûe, la situation et l'assiette d'une contrée. Il vient de l'Italien sito, et nos peintres l'ont fait passer en France). I empr. au lat. situs « emplacement, situation », dér. de sinere « poser, installer ». II prob. empr. à l'ital. sito « situation, lieu » (dep. 1313-19, Dante ds Tomm.-Bell.)."
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 12 hrs (2017-05-25 22:16:18 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Interesting document where the first two uses of "assiette" seem to refer to "site", or something close: http://www.inrap.fr/sites/inrap.fr/files/atoms/files/inrap-g...
Institut national de recherches archéologiques préventives (INRAP).
Guide pratique de l'aménageur.
L’aménagement du territoire et l’archéologie.
On the matter of "diagnostic archéologique":
(Page 3)
"Toutefois, la prescription de diagnostic n’est pas systématique : les travaux projetés peuvent ne présenter aucune atteinte notable au patrimoine connu ou présumé ; l’aménageur peut également procéder à des modifications (assiette du projet, aménagement technique) afin de rendre compatible sa réalisation avec la sauvegarde du patrimoine archéologique".
The following two uses seem to be to do with basis for the calculation of a payment.
Peer comment(s):
| neutral |
Tony M
: CD has got it, "port ott(oman" is just truncated. I think 'assiette' here has basically the same meanins as 'emprise', also used. But I think your suggestion is slightly more awkward to work into the structure with 'trapeze' etc.
1 hr
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Thank you Tony. Without the capital letters, I didn't get it. I don't see how "emprise" fits here but I agree that with "trapèze" it is not that easy.
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+1
59 mins
basic layout
I don't know if there is a proper technical term here, but I'd have thought something like this might possibly work?
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Note added at 1 jour33 minutes (2017-05-26 10:14:35 GMT)
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I think you're wise, Hazel — for one thing, 'base' on its own could be misleading, tending to make one think of some physical, structural component (which this clearly is not!)
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Note added at 1 jour33 minutes (2017-05-26 10:14:35 GMT)
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I think you're wise, Hazel — for one thing, 'base' on its own could be misleading, tending to make one think of some physical, structural component (which this clearly is not!)
Note from asker:
| I had translated it simply as 'base', but I am veering towards your 'basic layout', which even if there is a more technical term, still conveys the meaning. |
Discussion
Tony's answer would certainly make sense, but it may be that this "assiette" was such a piece of specialized jargon --and, if so, it might have its equivalent in the English jargon special to the science of fortification.
Being a continental power, the French were at the vanguard of fortification technology (and its counterpart, siege technology), while the Brits were somewhat behind their lead; which means that it's possible that the proper "English" word to use in a technical treatise of this type would be the French one --which would require (I should think) using the French term in the translation, in quotes, accompanied by a brief explanation in parentheses.
I'm just guessing --being blissfully unencumbered by any actual knowledge of the subject.