Glossary entry (derived from question below)
Japanese term or phrase:
天井懐
English translation:
joist bay / joist cavity
Added to glossary by
JapanLegal
Feb 6, 2011 11:38
13 yrs ago
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Japanese term
天井懐
Japanese to English
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Construction / Civil Engineering
Proposed translations
(English)
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Feb 20, 2011 23:36: JapanLegal Created KOG entry
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joist bay / joist cavity
Apparently, every architect calls this space something different. Many people just call it "the space between the floor and the ceiling," but that seems too ambiguous to me.
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090914101254AA...
However, both joist bay and joist cavity get a lot of hits, with mention of using the space for insulation, ventilation, and plumbing purposes:
http://www.heatinghelp.com/forum-thread/130096/High-Temperat...
"The best solution for heating a bathroom . . . is . . . the old tried and true copper fin-tube (element only) suspended about 1/4 to 1/2 down from the top of the joist bay, with as much insulation below the fins that you can fit without touching the bottom of the fins. I have been using this method to heat bathrooms and kitchens for the last 20 years, with very satisfactory results. The floor does not over-heat because the tubing and fins are not in contact with the floor. You are heating the joist bay air space (think mini-convection currents). The best part is the simplicity , low material cost, and the lack of maintenance down the road compared to mixing valves and variable speed pumps."
http://www.hammerzone.com/archives/hvac/duct/exhaust/fan4inc...
"By far the most important aspect of vent ducting is figuring out where to put it. Four-inch vent ducts can easily fit in the typical "joist bay" (space between adjacent joists), but under no circumstances are such ducts allowed to cut through a joist that spans any significant distance."
http://www.suntouch.com/underfloor/
"Simply staple UnderFloor heating mats between the joists. The end result will be warm, comfortable, heated floors from SunTouch.
Experience up to 15°F more warmth on most floors.
Between 6° and 10°F more warmth on carpet.
Step 1: Unroll and staple mats into your joist bays, 2 inches from the subfloor. Remember, mats are designed to fit in just one bay at a time."
http://www.acaraconcepts.com/Soundproofing Floors/Soundproof...
"1. The Ideal Timber Joist Solution to Soundproofing a Floor.
This Ideal Solution requires access to the floor above, to the ceiling below and to the joist cavity, for the other options see below."
------
I think "ceiling pocket" is something different: a raised area in a ceiling that adds to the air volume of the room (e.g. a skylight). This is actually the opposite of 天井懐. Ceiling pockets are important in fire safety design, presumably because they usually do not have sprinklers installed.
http://www.firesprinkler.org/techservices/articles/ceilingpo...
http://www.firesprinkler.org/techservices/articles/nfpaceili...
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090914101254AA...
However, both joist bay and joist cavity get a lot of hits, with mention of using the space for insulation, ventilation, and plumbing purposes:
http://www.heatinghelp.com/forum-thread/130096/High-Temperat...
"The best solution for heating a bathroom . . . is . . . the old tried and true copper fin-tube (element only) suspended about 1/4 to 1/2 down from the top of the joist bay, with as much insulation below the fins that you can fit without touching the bottom of the fins. I have been using this method to heat bathrooms and kitchens for the last 20 years, with very satisfactory results. The floor does not over-heat because the tubing and fins are not in contact with the floor. You are heating the joist bay air space (think mini-convection currents). The best part is the simplicity , low material cost, and the lack of maintenance down the road compared to mixing valves and variable speed pumps."
http://www.hammerzone.com/archives/hvac/duct/exhaust/fan4inc...
"By far the most important aspect of vent ducting is figuring out where to put it. Four-inch vent ducts can easily fit in the typical "joist bay" (space between adjacent joists), but under no circumstances are such ducts allowed to cut through a joist that spans any significant distance."
http://www.suntouch.com/underfloor/
"Simply staple UnderFloor heating mats between the joists. The end result will be warm, comfortable, heated floors from SunTouch.
Experience up to 15°F more warmth on most floors.
Between 6° and 10°F more warmth on carpet.
Step 1: Unroll and staple mats into your joist bays, 2 inches from the subfloor. Remember, mats are designed to fit in just one bay at a time."
http://www.acaraconcepts.com/Soundproofing Floors/Soundproof...
"1. The Ideal Timber Joist Solution to Soundproofing a Floor.
This Ideal Solution requires access to the floor above, to the ceiling below and to the joist cavity, for the other options see below."
------
I think "ceiling pocket" is something different: a raised area in a ceiling that adds to the air volume of the room (e.g. a skylight). This is actually the opposite of 天井懐. Ceiling pockets are important in fire safety design, presumably because they usually do not have sprinklers installed.
http://www.firesprinkler.org/techservices/articles/ceilingpo...
http://www.firesprinkler.org/techservices/articles/nfpaceili...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
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crawlspace / crawl space
I am thinking that the word for 天井懐 is "crawlspace.
The “crawlspace” in a home or building can be under the ceiling (please see first website) or under the floor (please see other websites).
It is a space (which is not too high, but high enough to have workers install insulation, piping for air-conditioning, wiring, etc. if needed.
--- The below English language website has a photo of a crawlspace under the ceiling:
http://www.charlesandhudson.com/archives/2009/01/ceiling_cra...
Ceiling Crawlspace Discoveries
If you've never peeked into your ceilings crawlspace you don't know what you're missing. If you aren't the original owner of the home and you never got a chance to look up there you might find old treasures from previous families or just junk, most likely the latter.
Checking out the crawlspace above your ceiling provides you with a lot of insight into the construction of your home including the electrical system, HVAC, and possible additions or recent construction.
--- The below Japanese language website has a diagram of a 天井懐
http://www.hi-ho.ne.jp/kag130/index51.htm
Here are some other websites:
http://insulation.owenscorning.com/homeowners/easy-weekend-p...
An unheated crawlspace can send cold air up through the floor of your home, making your heating system work harder and wasting energy. Adding fiber glass insulation batts between the joists in the crawlspace ceiling can keep the rooms above comfortable and lower your energy bills. Here’s how:
http://www.jmhomeowner.com/insulation/install/basementandcra...
Insulating Basement & Crawl Space Walls
Basement walls and walls in unvented crawl spaces should be insulated to help prevent substantial heat loss. (A crawl space is an unfinished, accessible area below the first floor of a building. An unvented crawl space is part of the basement while a vented crawl space opens to the outside.) Remember, an uninsulated basement alone can account for 25% or more of a home's total heat loss.
http://www.ehow.com/way_5366751_do-insulate-crawl-space-ceil...
Do I Need to Insulate My Crawl Space Ceiling?
By Theresa Leschmann, eHow Contributor
The question of whether to insulate a crawl space ceiling depends on the type of crawl space you have. Houses with vented crawl spaces, those with openings designed to allow airflow to dry out moisture, need crawl space ceiling insulation.
http://www.energysavers.gov/your_home/insulation_airsealing/...
Crawl Space Insulation
If you properly insulate your crawl space—in addition to air sealing and controlling moisture, you will save on energy costs and increase your home's comfort.
Before insulating or deciding whether to add insulation to your crawl space, first see our information about adding insulation to an existing house or selecting insulation for new home construction if you haven't already.
How to insulate a crawl space depends on whether it's ventilated or unventilated. Traditionally, crawl spaces have been vented to prevent problems with moisture; most building codes require vents to aid in removing moisture from the crawl space. However, many building professionals now recognize that building an unventilated crawl space (or closing vents after the crawl space dries out following construction) is the best option in homes using proper moisture control and exterior drainage techniques. There are two main reasons for this line of thinking:
• Ventilation in the winter makes it difficult to keep crawl spaces warm
• Warm, moist outdoor air brought into the crawl space through foundation vents in the summer is often unable to dehumidify a crawl space. In fact, this moist outdoor air can lead to increased moisture levels in the crawl space.
http://www.whatprice.co.uk/environmental/crawl-space-insulat...
INsulate Your Crawl Space
A Guide To Crawl Space Insulation
The “crawlspace” in a home or building can be under the ceiling (please see first website) or under the floor (please see other websites).
It is a space (which is not too high, but high enough to have workers install insulation, piping for air-conditioning, wiring, etc. if needed.
--- The below English language website has a photo of a crawlspace under the ceiling:
http://www.charlesandhudson.com/archives/2009/01/ceiling_cra...
Ceiling Crawlspace Discoveries
If you've never peeked into your ceilings crawlspace you don't know what you're missing. If you aren't the original owner of the home and you never got a chance to look up there you might find old treasures from previous families or just junk, most likely the latter.
Checking out the crawlspace above your ceiling provides you with a lot of insight into the construction of your home including the electrical system, HVAC, and possible additions or recent construction.
--- The below Japanese language website has a diagram of a 天井懐
http://www.hi-ho.ne.jp/kag130/index51.htm
Here are some other websites:
http://insulation.owenscorning.com/homeowners/easy-weekend-p...
An unheated crawlspace can send cold air up through the floor of your home, making your heating system work harder and wasting energy. Adding fiber glass insulation batts between the joists in the crawlspace ceiling can keep the rooms above comfortable and lower your energy bills. Here’s how:
http://www.jmhomeowner.com/insulation/install/basementandcra...
Insulating Basement & Crawl Space Walls
Basement walls and walls in unvented crawl spaces should be insulated to help prevent substantial heat loss. (A crawl space is an unfinished, accessible area below the first floor of a building. An unvented crawl space is part of the basement while a vented crawl space opens to the outside.) Remember, an uninsulated basement alone can account for 25% or more of a home's total heat loss.
http://www.ehow.com/way_5366751_do-insulate-crawl-space-ceil...
Do I Need to Insulate My Crawl Space Ceiling?
By Theresa Leschmann, eHow Contributor
The question of whether to insulate a crawl space ceiling depends on the type of crawl space you have. Houses with vented crawl spaces, those with openings designed to allow airflow to dry out moisture, need crawl space ceiling insulation.
http://www.energysavers.gov/your_home/insulation_airsealing/...
Crawl Space Insulation
If you properly insulate your crawl space—in addition to air sealing and controlling moisture, you will save on energy costs and increase your home's comfort.
Before insulating or deciding whether to add insulation to your crawl space, first see our information about adding insulation to an existing house or selecting insulation for new home construction if you haven't already.
How to insulate a crawl space depends on whether it's ventilated or unventilated. Traditionally, crawl spaces have been vented to prevent problems with moisture; most building codes require vents to aid in removing moisture from the crawl space. However, many building professionals now recognize that building an unventilated crawl space (or closing vents after the crawl space dries out following construction) is the best option in homes using proper moisture control and exterior drainage techniques. There are two main reasons for this line of thinking:
• Ventilation in the winter makes it difficult to keep crawl spaces warm
• Warm, moist outdoor air brought into the crawl space through foundation vents in the summer is often unable to dehumidify a crawl space. In fact, this moist outdoor air can lead to increased moisture levels in the crawl space.
http://www.whatprice.co.uk/environmental/crawl-space-insulat...
INsulate Your Crawl Space
A Guide To Crawl Space Insulation
+1
31 mins
under roof space/under floor cavity/under floor space
http://forum.inax.co.jp/renovation/keyword/001/01-066.html
http://www.hri.pref.hokkaido.jp/pdf/nenpou20.pdf
http://ci.nii.ac.jp/naid/110004142262
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Note added at 42 mins (2011-02-06 12:21:01 GMT)
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http://kotobank.jp/word/天井懐
http://www.hi-ho.ne.jp/kag130/index51.htm
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 days20 hrs (2011-02-09 08:03:19 GMT)
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'Beam' and 'joist' are not the condition for forming 「懐」
joist /dʒɔɪst/ [UK] [US] noun [countable]
one of the beams that support a floor or ceiling
Word origin
joist
Date: 1300-1400
Language: Old French
Origin: giste, from Latin jacere ‘to lie’
LDOCE5
http://toolboxes.flexiblelearning.net.au/demosites/series10/...
http://paulmjones.net/index.php/Dirt_Crawl_Space
joist
[dʒɔ́ist]
[音声]
■n.
(床･天井などを支える)小梁(こばり), 根太(ねだ), ジョイスト.
図
■v.t.
…に小梁[根太]をつける,を小梁[根太]で支える.
[1325年以前. 中期英語 giste＜古期フランス語＜俗ラテン語 *jacitum 支持(ラテン語 jacēre「横たわる」より)]
joist･less
■adj.
ランダムハウス英語辞典
http://www.hri.pref.hokkaido.jp/pdf/nenpou20.pdf
http://ci.nii.ac.jp/naid/110004142262
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 42 mins (2011-02-06 12:21:01 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
http://kotobank.jp/word/天井懐
http://www.hi-ho.ne.jp/kag130/index51.htm
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 days20 hrs (2011-02-09 08:03:19 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
'Beam' and 'joist' are not the condition for forming 「懐」
joist /dʒɔɪst/ [UK] [US] noun [countable]
one of the beams that support a floor or ceiling
Word origin
joist
Date: 1300-1400
Language: Old French
Origin: giste, from Latin jacere ‘to lie’
LDOCE5
http://toolboxes.flexiblelearning.net.au/demosites/series10/...
http://paulmjones.net/index.php/Dirt_Crawl_Space
joist
[dʒɔ́ist]
[音声]
■n.
(床･天井などを支える)小梁(こばり), 根太(ねだ), ジョイスト.
図
■v.t.
…に小梁[根太]をつける,を小梁[根太]で支える.
[1325年以前. 中期英語 giste＜古期フランス語＜俗ラテン語 *jacitum 支持(ラテン語 jacēre「横たわる」より)]
joist･less
■adj.
ランダムハウス英語辞典
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
Mami Yamaguchi
: http://ci.nii.ac.jp/naid/110004142262
17 hrs
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ありがとうございます。
|
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| neutral |
JapanLegal
: Where there are joists between floor & ceiling (as there usually are), the space between these joists is called a "joist bay." The same space would be called a "天井懐" in Japanese. Explaining "joist" alone proves nothing, nor does naming other supports.
4 days
|
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Beam, wall, slab, column also support floor/ceiling.
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4 days
ceiling cavity
Once I did search through English dictionary for 天井懐", I do not recall where I found this term. But since then. I am using this.
Discussion
Dictionary of Architectural and Building Technology, Fourth edition
ceiling cavity
In lighting design, the part of the room above the luminaire plane. The ceiling cavity ratio is a number calculated from its proportions, used in lumen- or flux-method calculations.
Like ceiling pocket, I think this space is actually inside a room, not between rooms.
1. They are often in news media accounts (e.g. bodies found in crawl spaces) or personal blogs rather than in industry writings. See, e.g., (gruesome story alert): http://www.aolnews.com/2010/04/02/autopsies-released-in-clev... .
2. Industry websites define a "crawl space" as a type of basement, and that seems at the very least to be the origin of the term. See, e.g., http://www.jmhomeowner.com/insulation/projects/crawlspaces.a... .
3. When they are not at the basement level, that fact is often specified ("third-floor crawl space"), suggesting that the bare term most strongly implies a basement-level space. See the link in #1 (if you dare).
My first point still stands, though - the main determinant of the correct term (assuming that there is only one) will be the context. Is this an industry report? A personal blog? A construction company's website? Without this information, we can only speculate - fun for me but probably not so helpful to our friend Li Gang!
More importantly, though (and this was news to me as well), "crawl space" seems to be a technical term for a specific type of basement. See http://paulmjones.net/index.php/Dirt_Crawl_Space and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basement#Crawl_space . Thus, I would go even further than my previous statement to say that I don't think that it would be appropriately general as a translation for 「天井懐」. Crawl spaces are used for a lot of the same functions (heating, plumbing, etc.) as the spaces between the other floors, but the references lead me to believe that it would be incorrect to call the space between the second and third floors a "crawl space."
Seriously though, although one of my websites mentioned its “crawl space” as having little treasures stored, normally, it’s just the name of the accessible space under the roof or below the floor for the installation and maintenance of ductwork and plumbing.
It’s not a place for occupants to use (unless the occupants are mice happily hidden away). And, though it's called a "crawl space" it isn't necessarily a space where you have to “crawl along” in total discomfort. That would be counterproductive. It’s space of an adequate height to get the work and servicing done.
Anyway, it’s nice jousting with you with our opinions.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstitial_space_(architectur...
Crawl spaces are generally large enough to fit a person (crawling), and if the space is being used for storage it's likely a crawl space. However, sometimes "crawl spaces" are really huge, and they're not necessarily accessible from the floor or ceiling (my aunt and uncle have one that you can stand up in and that takes up half of the basement of their house, and you enter it through a tiny door in the wall).
Joist bays/cavities are not necessarily people-sized, and they're not necessarily used for storage. Rather, they are open pockets of air between the joists that support the floor. I think "joist bay" is a broad category that includes crawl spaces, or perhaps they are two overlapping circles in a venn diagram (with "crawl space" including some non-joist bays).
It may just be me, but I think that the word "crawl space" implies that the space is a part of a house that the occupants can use, whereas a joist bay would be used by a plumber or an electrician. Your source text should tell you which word is more appropriate.