| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6] > | Getting started in the translation industry. Is a Masters worth it? Thread poster: Ellie Phillips
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Kaspars Melkis 
United Kingdom
Local time: 11:19
English to Latvian
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| regulation is not always beneficial | May 26, 2021 |
Sadek_A wrote:
It's only unregulated because of outsiders who are fighting against any regulation. And, at the same time, those same outsiders would never tolerate any alien joining their profession without a relevant degree.
I am not against translation being regulated, I just stated the current status quo.
In my opinion, compared to medicine, engineering etc., translators have not presented themselves as important enough to be regulated. Many of them view themselves as protectors of language purity which frankly is nonsense.
It is very difficult to define and measure translation quality. Furthermore, translation is so varied starting from machine translation post-editors to quality reviewers that it is almost impossible to define common professional standards for all of them.
If you look at medical writers, the profession that is the closest to translation, then most of them have a degree in medicine or biology and very likely have a lab work or research experience and only some of them have taken medical writer courses.
However, specialist texts DO require knowledge of the terminology (hence, dictionaries and glossaries), not of the subject. I don't have to be a coroner to translate a post-mortem report, but I have to be a qualified master of the language (aka., a language-degree holder) and an acquirer of the appropriate terminology (doesn't matter acquirer from where; memory, book, internet, dictionary, glossary, etc.).
I think that first you need to understand the basic concepts and only then it makes sense to learn terminology to be able to successfully translate specialist texts. Otherwise, you won't be able to understand them very well and will occasionally make serious mistakes. You may learn about them on your own and there is no need to get a degree in the field. But it is not optimal to learn it only via terminology.
| | | | Sadek_A
Local time: 14:19
English to Arabic
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Kaspars Melkis wrote:
regulation is not always beneficial
You know who always says that? People with inherent interest in un-regulation.
Kaspars Melkis wrote:
In my opinion, compared to medicine, engineering etc., translators have not presented themselves as important enough to be regulated. Many of them view themselves as protectors of language purity which frankly is nonsense.
So, not only are outsiders unfairly competing all the way from their different professions into this one, but also blaming their wrongdoing on the true folks of this profession. That's quite the logic!
Kaspars Melkis wrote:
It is very difficult to define and measure translation quality.
It is very difficult for outsiders who were not taught in the language. Granted.
And, now we see it all the time in the form of gullible reviews by outsiders criticized by reviewees who are also outsiders, all while the true folks of the profession are watching from the sidelines not believing what they're seeing.
Kaspars Melkis wrote:
If you look at medical writers, the profession that is the closest to translation, then most of them have a degree in medicine or biology and very likely have a lab work or research experience and only some of them have taken medical writer courses.
A medical writer, or any writer, doesn't need to know 2 or more languages; however, a translator does. Hence, medical/regulatory writing, unlike translation, is not considered an independent profession, but rather a flake from and back into the medical environment.
Kaspars Melkis wrote:
I think that first you need to understand the basic concepts and only then it makes sense to learn terminology to be able to successfully translate specialist texts.
No, you don't. Can you list components, mechanisms, procedures, etc., of 'space shuttles'? Of course, you can't; nevertheless, you know it as 'Kosmosa kuģis.' So, basically, you didn't need to be a NASA guy to know the corresponding terminology, you just needed to know that terminology not the subject it stood for.
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Sadek_A wrote:
However, specialist texts DO require knowledge of the terminology (hence, dictionaries and glossaries), not of the subject. I don't have to be a coroner to translate a post-mortem report, but I have to be a qualified master of the language (aka., a language-degree holder) and an acquirer of the appropriate terminology (doesn't matter acquirer from where; memory, book, internet, dictionary, glossary, etc.).
I would strongly disagree with this. Knowing the terminology of a field is not enough. If you don't understand the basic concepts of the subject you are translating you won't spot if what you are writing is clearly nonsense or if a source sentence might be ambiguous. You will make mistakes without even realising you are on dodgy ground. Translators often put too much emphasis on terminology and not enough on real understanding.
| | | | Sadek_A
Local time: 14:19
English to Arabic
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Rachel Waddington wrote:
I would strongly disagree with this. Knowing the terminology of a field is not enough. If you don't understand the basic concepts of the subject you are translating you won't spot if what you are writing is clearly nonsense or if a source sentence might be ambiguous. You will make mistakes without even realising you are on dodgy ground. Translators often put too much emphasis on terminology and not enough on real understanding.
Then, tell us what your education is, and give us several examples of your own translations where you had to understand the concept of the subject and not just the terminology.
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Heather Oland
United States
Local time: 06:19
Member (2005)
Spanish to English
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| Is a Masters worth it? | May 27, 2021 |
Whether or not a Masters is "worth it" will depend on the individual, I think. It's certainly not necessary. I do have a Masters, but not in translation. What taught me more than anything else about how to be a freelancer was several years spent working at a translation agency as a project manager. I learned all of the nuts and bolts of the business, as well as about client expectations, what a good translation looks like, problem solving, and how to work most effectively in the PM/freelancer re... See more Whether or not a Masters is "worth it" will depend on the individual, I think. It's certainly not necessary. I do have a Masters, but not in translation. What taught me more than anything else about how to be a freelancer was several years spent working at a translation agency as a project manager. I learned all of the nuts and bolts of the business, as well as about client expectations, what a good translation looks like, problem solving, and how to work most effectively in the PM/freelancer relationship... which makes me an asset to the PMs I work with now.
I love being a translator, but as a freelancer, an important part of my job is managing my business--whether you get those skills from schooling or work experience will depend on how you learn best. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Beyond debate | May 27, 2021 |
Sadek_A wrote:
Then, tell us what your education is, and give us several examples of your own translations where you had to understand the concept of the subject and not just the terminology.
I think you're digging yourself a hole there, Sadek. You can't translate something properly without understanding what is going on.
Look at the mess most translators make of companies' financial reports. All the terms in the world at their fingertips, but little knowledge of how to use them.
| | | | | Agree with Rachel | May 27, 2021 |
Rachel Waddington wrote: Sadek_A wrote:
However, specialist texts DO require knowledge of the terminology (hence, dictionaries and glossaries), not of the subject.
I would strongly disagree with this. Knowing the terminology of a field is not enough. If you don't understand the basic concepts of the subject you are translating you won't spot if what you are writing is clearly nonsense or if a source sentence might be ambiguous. You will make mistakes without even realising you are on dodgy ground. Translators often put too much emphasis on terminology and not enough on real understanding.
Exactly. I lost count of dangerous mistakes I've seen in the work of the translators adhering to Sadek's approach (some of these mistakes appearing here on KudoZ). Worse yet, some linguists flatly refuse to accept recommendations from the specialists in the subject field because they look counterintuitive to them. By coincidence (or not?), this happens more frequently in the fields where errors in the translation can cause accidents and kill people. Incidentally, this is confirmed by the market: translations by specialists in these subject fields (medicine, aerospace, nuclear energy, etc.) command a much higher price than those by pure linguists.
[Edited at 2021-05-27 13:07 GMT]
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Sadek_A wrote:
give us several examples of your own translations where you had to understand the concept of the subject and not just the terminology.
Though your question was addressed to Rachel, I feel compelled to give you a very important example. In my working environment, it is highly desirable for a translator to be able to spot errors in the source text, correct them in the translation and report them to the client so that the source text also gets corrected. At least 5% of the texts I translate contain such errors, and the most frequent errors are a reversal of the intended meaning (as in "should always be" instead of "should never be") or wrong units of measurement. A specialist in the subject field will easily spot such errors, which a mere terminologist will never be able to do.
[Edited at 2021-05-27 14:49 GMT]
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Sadek_A
Local time: 14:19
English to Arabic
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Anton Konashenok wrote:
In my working environment, it is highly desirable for a translator to be able to spot errors in the source text, correct them in the translation and report them to the client so that the source text also gets corrected. At least 5% of the texts I translate contain such errors, and the most frequent errors are a reversal of the intended meaning (as in "should always be" instead of "should never be") or wrong units of measurement. A specialist in the subject field will easily spot such errors, which a mere terminologist will never be able to do.
[Edited at 2021-05-27 14:49 GMT]
The above attempt is, unfortunately, not what I meant by "several examples of your own translations."
Nevertheless, let's consider the following: A medical text saying:
"patient should always be given steroids because of their negative impact on him"
You really believe a language-degree holder will need to be a doctor to spot the paradox in that statement?
They won't realize the correction is "patient should never be given steroids because of their negative impact on him"?
Also, how can you figure out a wrong unit of measurement between cardiovascular-Pharmacology and psycho-Pharmacology when you are, say, a veterinary-Pharmacologist translating their materials?
The answer is you won't be any better than a language-degree holder doing that same task.
I've already given the 'space shuttle' example.
And, allow me, to add another one:
If a medical text is saying "then transferred to intensive care unit for monitoring and follow-up," are you mandatorily familiar with each and every procedure, task, equipment, staff, timing, etc., those "monitoring and follow-up in ICU" entail? Do you have to be a doctor, an ICU doctor above all, to translate that sentence, or do you just apply the corresponding terminology you acquired without having the least idea what they involve?
I'm looking forward to similar detailed examples that can prove the validity of the other side.
Lastly, in a world where specialized domains have branches, and their branches have branches, and so on, it is just not viable to require someone from this branch or that sub-branch to be the one that does the translation.
Why not viable? Because:
1. That someone, HOPEFULLY, has their own job to do.
2. Being untaught in language is going to be a huge problem in both their comprehension and wording.
3. Their affiliation doesn't necessarily mean they are knowledgeable in the subject.
4. Limiting the client to that possibly micro-pool of HR will put so much pressure on current and future contents being translated for that domain. Which actually takes us to the point I raised before, i.e. those affiliates eventually subcontracting to the true folks of the profession.
I know that some people think of regulating based on degree is like a kill-switch being taken to them; however, no one is stopping you from getting the degree and properly joining the profession. In fact, you not doing so is like you taking the same kill-switch to those who invested years of their lives and stacks of their money to join this profession. So, if you don't like it done to you when you're actually in breach, don't do it to others who played by the book.
| | | | Kaspars Melkis
United Kingdom
Local time: 11:19
English to Latvian
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| This illustrates the dangers of blindly following the glossary term | May 27, 2021 |
Sadek_A wrote:
No, you don't. Can you list components, mechanisms, procedures, etc., of 'space shuttles'? Of course, you can't; nevertheless, you know it as 'Kosmosa kuģis.' So, basically, you didn't need to be a NASA guy to know the corresponding terminology, you just needed to know that terminology not the subject it stood for.
I don't know where you got that but in Latvian “kosmosa kuģis” does not even properly reflect the idea of a shuttle. Proper translation would be “vairākkārt izmantojamais kosmosa kuģis”, but it is too long and some sources just use “atspoļkuģis” and others use a calque “šatls”. I suppose there could be cases when we don't care that it is a returnable module and can simply use “kosmosa kuģis” which literary means a space ship. Then you would need to learn more about types of space vehicles, how they travel and how those astronauts return to earth and figure out if it is relevant in the given text or not.
Machine translation sometimes can be very good but ultimately it fails with specialist text exactly because it tries to work at the level of terminology and statistical coincidences without deeper understanding. Creative texts often break those assumptions and MT fails in those cases.
| | | | Daryo
United Kingdom
Local time: 11:19
Serbian to English
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| Asking the wrong question | May 27, 2021 |
Sadek_A wrote: Daryo wrote:
@Sadek_A The whole of your reasoning is based on the idea that there is some kind of "natural entitlement" that you get from purely "linguistic" studies.
Well - I got news for you: there isn't any. No, there is not "some kind of natural entitlement", there is the whole and only entitlement. You get a degree in a foreign language, your prompt job choices are translator, teacher, or language trainer. It just gives me the chuckles that you are contesting that "natural entitlement" for language-degree holders while you are granting it upon outsiders who didn't do their homework. Imagine saying that sentence of yours to someone who spent 4 years of university busting their humps, punching holes in their pockets and getting a degree in engineering, law, etc. 😝😂 YOU ARE NOT NATURALLY ENTITLED TO BE AN ENGINEER, LAWYER, ETC., JUST BECAUSE YOU GOT THE APPROPRIATE DEGREE. If you're going to refer to the UN, don't do it through a proxy. Here are 2 links from the UN: https://jobs.undp.org/cj_view_job.cfm?cur_job_id=98535 Criterion A: Bachelor degree Bachelor degree...................................................... 05 points Degree is in translation............................................ 15 points So, if you're a relevant field BA guy, you get 5 pts. But, if you're a translation BA guy, you get the whole 20. What does that say exactly? https://jobs.undp.org/cj_view_job.cfm?cur_job_id=33450 Evaluation Criteria: Expertise: Required academic background – Diploma degree in translation: 1-2 years: 15 points; 3-4 years : 20 points; B.A Degree or higher in translation: 25 points So, once again, if you're a translation BA guy, you score the highest on that item. There seems to be a pattern suggesting that the person who spent (1) 4 years (2) studying the language and its arts, including translation, is better than the one who didn't. How about a third link from a university, in the US. Let's see what they have to say about the topic: https://www.gcu.edu/blog/language-communication/translator-what-degree-do-you-need (1)"Typically, a translation degree refers to a bachelor’s degree in a certain language." (2)"This degree would equip you with the necessary skills and knowledge to pursue a successful career as a professional translator." (3)"A bachelor’s translation degree is all that is required to enter the field." Daryo wrote:
To get back to the initial question "is an MA in Translation worth it"?
Under current chaotic market conditions? NO. It would be insane to get one. BA degree in language is the top for current market. What's your education, Daryo? It should help us better understand the perspective you're coming from.
My education? That's a wrong question - the way you are presenting your arguments you are probably assuming that only "formal education" leading to a piece of paper is "education".
From my point of view what is relevant is the actual capability to produce at least a usable translation if not one fit for purpose. And in that "formal education" certainly can contribute, but it doesn't warrant any kind of fetishisation. All that without going into interpreting, which is another story altogether.
I limited myself to publicly available information. I could list a long series of serious blunders and cock-ups that I witnessed first hand, by "qualified linguists" that found themselves totally out of their depth with some specialised subjects, but there is this thing called "confidentiality".
So much for those you see as "insiders" in the translation business.
It's entirely up to you to believe or not that "translation diploma" (nor some more general language diploma) is NOT in itself any guarantee of quality. FYI some of the best clients are perfectly aware of that, whatever you imagine to be your "entitlement".
I almost forgot, you are curious about my education? My profile says all that is relevant about that.
[Edited at 2021-05-30 22:24 GMT]
| | | | Sadek_A
Local time: 14:19
English to Arabic
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Kaspars Melkis wrote:
I don't know where you got that but in Latvian “kosmosa kuģis” does not even properly reflect the idea of a shuttle.
The example was 'space shuttle,' pure and simple, with no adjectives attached to it.
This is where I got it:
https://lv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosmosa_kuģis
Kaspars Melkis wrote:
Proper translation would be “vairākkārt izmantojamais kosmosa kuģis”
- "vairākkārt izmantojamais": where "izmantojamais" means "usable", and "vairākkārt" means "repeatedly/several times."
Was there any mention in my example of it being "reusable" or not?
Kaspars Melkis wrote:
some sources just use “atspoļkuģis”
- "atspoļkuģis": where "atspoļ" is redundant and means "shuttle", and "kuģis" is from the original and correct "kosmosa kuģis".
So, basically, "atspoļkuģis" is translated into "shuttle ship" to avoid the redundancy. Where is "space" then?
kosmosa-atspolkugis
https://www.apollo.lv/5325016/kosmosa-atspolkugis-endeavour-atgriezas-uz-zemes/comments
Kaspars Melkis wrote:
others use a calque “šatls”
- "šatls": a calque? like a transliteration that gives the pronunciation in different letters? was my example about a calque (transliteration), or about a pure translation?
BTW, "šatls" also means "shuttle", so once again where is "space"?
Kaspars Melkis wrote:
I suppose there could be cases when we don't care that it is a returnable module and can simply use “kosmosa kuģis” which literary means a space ship.
There it is.
Kaspars Melkis wrote:
Then you would need to learn more about types of space vehicles, how they travel and how those astronauts return to earth and figure out if it is relevant in the given text or not.
The example didn't involve any "types of space vehicles," it was a straightforward "space shuttle," but not important.
You have established your acquisition of the terminology (regardless of whether they were wrong), now show us your knowledge of the domain that stands behind those terms.
I repeat my earlier question, "Can you list each and every component, mechanism, procedure, etc., of 'vairākkārt izmantojamais kosmosa kuģis', 'atspoļkuģis', or 'šatls'?."
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Sadek_A
Local time: 14:19
English to Arabic
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Daryo wrote:
the way you are presenting your arguments you are probably assuming that only "formal education" leading to a piece of paper is "education".
Let's see:
You're criticizing:
1. Formal education.
2. Its value.
3. Its authority.
You're alleging:
1. Inadequacy of language learners, and
2. Their non-entitlement.
3. Adequacy of non-language learners, and
4. Their entitlement.
It's clear you're trying to put sky below feet and ground above heads in a desperate bid to justify unwarranted affiliation with this profession.
To that, I repeat: get the language degree, then join, that simple.
First step of regulating this decaying profession is ridding it of the alien organism causing its decay, i.e. those with no language degree.
Then, firm rules on proving identity must be in place. Anyone who doesn't wish to furnish (1) passport/national ID, (2) language degree, and (3) bank account under same full name as in those 2 previous documents, is a criminal with whom communication must be immediately ceased by company.
After that, the filtered pool can be further filtered based upon job-related practices:
- who always provides incomplete translations
- who always provides improvised translations
- who always provides late translations
- who always rejects above-novice projects
- who always accepts then later drops projects
- etc.
Those get removed as well.
Now, we have earnest of the earnest, let them compete among themselves on higher quality, not on lower price.
If we -- language-degree holders, the true folks of this profession -- allow the current chaos to continue, and those outsiders to remain around, this profession is bound for skeletonization and far worse.
| | | | Kaspars Melkis
United Kingdom
Local time: 11:19
English to Latvian
+ ...
Sadek_A wrote:
I repeat my earlier question, "Can you list each and every component, mechanism, procedure, etc., of 'vairākkārt izmantojamais kosmosa kuģis', 'atspoļkuģis', or 'šatls'?."
Sure, I can. Why do you ask?
| | | | Mervyn Henderson (X)
Spain
Local time: 12:19
Spanish to English
+ ...
Walk away, lad. Walk away. It ain't worf it.
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