| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6] > | Obvious Kudoz questions from people claiming to be able to translate into English Thread poster: Tom in London
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| Isn't there an abuse policy here somewhere? | Dec 11, 2008 |
I am just posting here quickly - I am working on a tight deadline and so don't have time to check what I am going to write about. Sorry.
Wasn't there a KudoZ abuse policy somewhere on this site? If memory serves, there was a policy setting out the rules (e.g., using KudoZ as a last resort after having checked all other resources) and making it clear that those who cheat will lose access to KudoZ. Which would be the right thing to do with all these rules that prevent us from r... See more I am just posting here quickly - I am working on a tight deadline and so don't have time to check what I am going to write about. Sorry.
Wasn't there a KudoZ abuse policy somewhere on this site? If memory serves, there was a policy setting out the rules (e.g., using KudoZ as a last resort after having checked all other resources) and making it clear that those who cheat will lose access to KudoZ. Which would be the right thing to do with all these rules that prevent us from raising concerns about some askers that just don't seem to get it. A bit like with the BlueBoard. If you keep asking elementary questions that could clearly have been answered by opening a dusty Merriam-Webster, and at least two people have complained about you doing it, you are not allowed to post any KudoZ questions for a month.
I know I sound like a dictator to some, but come on! I don't see why the majority should suffer from and waste time with the minority. Enough is enough.
So, is there such a policy? ▲ Collapse
| | | | Andrea Riffo 
Chile
Local time: 08:54
English to Spanish
+ ...
| Simona BONELLI
France
Local time: 14:54
Member (2008)
French to Italian
+ ...
| KudoZ points | Dec 12, 2008 |
Charlie Bavington wrote: Didn't take me a minute to find it  Note too that someone has leapt to their defence. THAT is what I also find incredible (I expect you'll get your knuckles rapped if you get reported, BTW).
Hello Charlie, I hope you were not referring to me when you said that “someone has leapt for their defence”. When I was asking Tom not to give references that could make us identify the incompetent translator, I had no idea that the translator could be a cheater. I was only defending people’s privacy. But there is no privacy when someone is a double-dealer.
Now that you believe (and I am more and more convinced of it, alas) that someone is cheating, I think that there is nothing else to do: we should ask Proz staff to change the rules. I like this site, but I find it a bit too “elaborated” (“arzigogolato” would be a nice Italian word for it). Too many points, letters, Kudoz, wallets, etc. I do not want to eliminate Kudoz questions and answers, but I honestly do not understand the sense of Kudoz points. But maybe this is another topic we might discuss somewhere else.
Cheers,
Ellie
[Modificato alle 2008-12-12 07:59 GMT]
| | | | hazmatgerman (X)
Local time: 14:54
English to German
| pseudo questions | Dec 12, 2008 |
Viktoria Gimbe wrote:
... If you keep asking elementary questions that could clearly have been answered by opening a dusty Merriam-Webster, and at least two people have complained about you doing it, you are not allowed to post any KudoZ questions for a month....
I fully second that proposal, Ms. Gimbe. Might be effected on the basis of consecutive "easy" markings by peers.
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Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 13:54
Member (2008)
Italian to English
TOPIC STARTER | arzigogolatura taken to the limit | Dec 12, 2008 |
Simona Elena Bonelli wrote:I like this site, but I find it a bit too “elaborated” (“arzigogolato” would be a nice Italian word for it). Too many points, letters, Kudoz, wallets, etc.
Yeah, there are too many people working on this site, festooning it with endless "improvements". And anyway the "improvements" designed to weed out the cheaters don't work.
Too many bells and whistles, as we say in English.
Enough already! as they say in Noo Yawk.
[Edited at 2008-12-12 09:03 GMT]
| | | | | Clarification | Dec 12, 2008 |
Simona Elena Bonelli wrote:
Hello Charlie, I hope you were not referring to me when you said that “someone has leapt for their defence”.
Nope. I was talking about the discussion on the question page itself.
Now that you believe (and I am more and more convinced of it, alas) that someone is cheating, (....)
I'm not a fan of the word "cheating", because I am not sure it applies to ALL the people we are talking about. Some are just lazy. Some are in the wrong job. Some need to acquire better search skills. Some need more confidence in their own judgement (some, to be sure, need less!).
But there are people who take advantage of other people's generous nature.
I don't particularly have a problem with that per se, they are all consenting adults.
I (and others) do have a problem with it when it starts impinging on the benefits and use I (and they) can make of the site, which is reduced when there is so much crap on here. Searches take longer, bring up more (irrelevant) hits, I (and they) can't see questions that interest me because of the crap to wade through, and on the rare occasions I've needed help, my own questions get lost in a sea of utter crap. In short, it is crap.
I have lost count of the number of reasonable suggestions to curtail the crap. There is zero interest from site management in reducing the crap.
| | | | Paul Cohen
Greenland
Local time: 11:54
German to English
+ ...
| “A sea of utter crap” – a serious credibility problem | Dec 12, 2008 |
Marie-Hélène Hayles wrote:
(...) the nature of the system means that everyone in (the P program) has been judged worthy by a number of their peers - so clearly my, or Tom's, or anyone else's opinion of their (or indeed our!) UNworthiness must be subjective, however firmly we believe it (and however we are able to justify it).
I’m glad that Marie-Hélène brought up this point. Nobody within the “P” program – or on KudoZ or anywhere else on this site – wants to go on record as saying that person “X” or “Y” is unworthy based on subjective criteria. Our judgements will always be subjective. That makes it extremely difficult to organize a certification program internally. Unless an independent outside body is involved, such a quality seal is bound to be nothing more than a “self-certification,” as has been pointed out earlier in this thread.
Where do we draw the line between who is a “pro” and who is not? I’m afraid we could chew on that question until the end of time.
Nevertheless, it is clearly UNprofessional to translate into a language that you don’t master – a type of behavior that is consciously and actively encouraged by this website in the current KudoZ environment.
It seems to me that we don’t need more bells and whistles for KudoZ, no special “zap” button to eliminate avalanches of silly questions with no context, no more wonderful suggestions from site users on how to improve the climate. What we need is for management to stop giving lip service to quality but actually show that it cares about the plunging level of KudoZ questions and answers.
Charlie Bavington wrote:
(...) on the rare occasions I've needed help, my own questions get lost in a sea of utter crap. In short, it is crap.
I couldn’t agree more. We, as members of this site, are clearly not getting our money’s worth here.
Another thing to keep in mind: Potential clients use this crap-filled Q&A forum called KudoZ as a guideline to look for professional translators in the directory (more KudoZ points = a higher ranking). Wake up, ProZ.com! This is a serious credibility problem – and it won’t be solved by launching an internal “pro” certification program where we can all slap each other on the back.
| | | | | Beautifully said | Dec 12, 2008 |
Paul Cohen wrote:
Another thing to keep in mind: Potential clients use this crap-filled Q&A forum called KudoZ as a guideline to look for professional translators in the directory (more KudoZ points = a higher ranking). Wake up, ProZ.com! This is a serious credibility problem – and it won’t be solved by launching an internal “pro” certification program where we can all slap each other on the back.
I don't have much to add - my feelings exactly.
I feel it is rather unfair, to me and to my colleagues, that we have to keep trying to answer KudoZ questions just to keep our directory rankings. This is something I have always had a problem with. And when incompetent people are ranked higher in the directory than true professionals (I don't mean the ones with the red P - some excellent translators don't have red Ps), it gets really nasty. In short, many people who are not worthy of credibility get it easily, while many people who deserve credibility don't have any because they are not points grabbers. Sometimes, I really feel that the only way to have any credibility here is to be a points grabber. Not to mention that, logically, those who are busy translating and not desperate for a measly contract don't have time to answer KudoZ questions, whereas those who answer a zillion questions per day clearly aren't working. If anything, a high number of KudoZ questions answered over a short timespan is an indicator of a person who is not busy translating, which makes you wonder how competent or professional they are if they don't have a contract to work on. It's upside down thinking...
Also, I find that using the number of KudoZ points received to establish ranking is completely illogical. Instead, I would use a points awarded / questions answered ratio for rankings. So, points grabbers (who often give lousy answers) would shift toward the end of the directory, whereas those who may have answered less questions but whose answers were chosen more often would climb up the directory ladder. In any case, I find this a much more sensible approach. It may not be perfect, since we all know that askers don't always choose the best or most helpful answer, but it's a step in the right direction.
My KudoZ ratio, for English to French, in Canada, in the Environment & Ecology subject matter, is 4 to 7, or 57%. Colleague A, just below me in the directory, has a ratio of 5 to 11, or 45%, in EN < > FR. In EN > FR only, the ratio is even smaller (she also answered environment questions in other language pairs, which raises her total points for this subject matter). However, Colleague B, who is even further down the list, has a 50% ratio for EN > FR. This means that the list shows three translators who have ratios of 57%, 45% (or less) and 50%, in that order. This means that Colleague A has better directory placement than Colleague B, even though she has given a smaller number of useful answers than Colleague B. The only person above me for that directory search is a person who has a 4 to 8, or 50%, ratio in EN > FR - this is lower than mine, so in my humble opinion, I should appear above that translator. I'm not bragging or denouncing injustice, but if KudoZ points were an expression of competence, as they are currently used, then I should be first.
Several things are wrong. I did a directory search for EN > FR, but Colleague A's KudoZ answers in other language pairs were counted to establish her ranking, which is inappropriate. The client looking at the directory wants a translator competent in that language pair, not another one. Also, the fact that a translator has answered 100 questions doesn't mean that any of those answers was right, while a translator further down the directory page, who answered only 10 questions, may have given all perfectly valid answers and is still not getting the credit due (better directory placement). Also, when two people are tied for the number of KudoZ points in a particular field and language pair, it is the person having answered the higher total number of KudoZ points in all subject matters of that language pair who appears first. It's as though the fact that that person has answered more questions attests of their competence - which is entirely wrong. Other, more valid criteria can be used to establish which of the two comes first. For example, I have a corroborated project in that language pair and field, and the person above me doesn't have any. Still, he appears above me.
Using the total number of questions answered to establish directory ranking is like using the total number of BlueBoard comments an agency received to rank them. Following this logic, an agency that got 50 bad BlueBoard ratings should be higher in BlueBoard rankings than the agency who got 5 positive comments.
If the above described ratio were used instead of the total number of points, not only would the directory better reflect people's competence, this would also discourage people from answering questions for which their answer may not be chosen. This would directly affect points grabbing. In other words, people would be careful not to answer questions they are not qualified to answer. In time, the quaility of the KoG would also improve.
I know that the directory has been "improved" lately - but I am afraid that, if ProZ takes the directory seriously, then it's back to the drawing board, guys.
[Edited at 2008-12-12 18:48 GMT]
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Mervyn Henderson (X)
Spain
Local time: 14:54
Spanish to English
+ ...
Hello Tom in London and everyone else,
Yes, I'm much too scared to post on Kudoz, and these five pages of postings confirm I have a lot to be scared about.
Am I the only Prozer who has never ever asked or answered?? Being the anxious and impatient translating type, if I were asking, I would prefer to use the time before responses come in to look elsewhere, and I've heard too much about abuse of the points system to either ask or answer. Also, as others have said, when ... See more Hello Tom in London and everyone else,
Yes, I'm much too scared to post on Kudoz, and these five pages of postings confirm I have a lot to be scared about.
Am I the only Prozer who has never ever asked or answered?? Being the anxious and impatient translating type, if I were asking, I would prefer to use the time before responses come in to look elsewhere, and I've heard too much about abuse of the points system to either ask or answer. Also, as others have said, when you find questions asking for the meaning of a basic preposition, you begin to wonder what's going on here ...
Heinrich's teamwork hypothesis is spot on and likely right.
I do use Kudoz for terminology, although sometimes you have to beat back the more obvious chaff, and it does put me on the right track sometimes.
Mervyn ▲ Collapse
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Mervyn wrote:
Am I the only Prozer who has never ever asked or answered??
No, you are not alone. However, be warned that not having answered any KudoZ questions reflects poorly on you. Most people view it either as incompetence or as lack of interest in the community. The only thing worse than not having asked or answered any questions is not having answered any questions and having asked a bunch.
This only goes to show what a disproportionately important role KudoZ plays in the directory, in your profile and in this community in general.
| | | | Mervyn Henderson (X)
Spain
Local time: 14:54
Spanish to English
+ ...
| I will not sleep tonight ... | Dec 12, 2008 |
... and you will be responsible, Viktoria Gimbe. Yes you will. I know what you're thinking over there across the Big Pond. Don't think I don't, because I do.
A long time ago I considered this idea of the negative impression that might be conveyed by my lackadaisical attitude, but wasn't too sure how to describe it. I toyed with expressions, but couldn't come up with anything fitting. Suddenly it occurred to me: "what a disproportionately important role KudoZ plays in the directory, ... See more ... and you will be responsible, Viktoria Gimbe. Yes you will. I know what you're thinking over there across the Big Pond. Don't think I don't, because I do.
A long time ago I considered this idea of the negative impression that might be conveyed by my lackadaisical attitude, but wasn't too sure how to describe it. I toyed with expressions, but couldn't come up with anything fitting. Suddenly it occurred to me: "what a disproportionately important role KudoZ plays in the directory, in your profile and in this community in general".
"You fool", was my next thought, "it's not that it's just occurred to you, it's that Viktoria's just said it".
Sounds pretty good to me. ... Oh, look, I've just noticed a question on Kudoz, but simply couldn't be bothered answering. Oops, there I go again.
Have a good weekend!
Mervyn ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Not at all old chap | Dec 12, 2008 |
Mervyn Henderson wrote:
Am I the only Prozer who has never ever asked or answered?? Being the anxious and impatient translating type, if I were asking, I would prefer to use the time before responses come in to look elsewhere,....
I think that is what people ought to do. Not just sit back and watch Jeremy Kyle, which is what I suspect....
When I see profiles with zero kudoz activity, my first thought tends to be that a) they know their field well enough not to have ask anything and b) they are too busy or too protective of the knowledge they worked hard to acquire to give it away to numpties, and c) they don't need the points for work purposes.
All of which makes me think - well-established professional of some standing.
I know there are dozens of explanations, including the complete opposite - part-timers who only work in the afternoons during school term time and have actually completely forgotten they registered here, for instance - but I prefer to think well of people until they show me otherwise
Disproportionate role is bang on. Fais de beaux rêves
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| Let's keep it courteous | Dec 12, 2008 |
Hello all,
I'd like to make a friendly reminder of site rule http://www.proz.com/siterules/general/2#2 here. Feedback on the KudoZ term help system and other areas of the site is welcome, but let's keep it courteous. Thanks, and have a good weekend.
Jared
| | | | Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 13:54
Member (2008)
Italian to English
TOPIC STARTER
It is apparently not permitted in Kudoz to draw attention to the fact the someone has just asked a really obvious question that any competent translator should be able to answer.
Where *is* it permitted?
I want a forum where we can do that.
[Edited at 2008-12-12 20:37 GMT]
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