| A témához tartozó oldalak: < [1 2 3 4] > | Who Needs The Natives II: Advertising copy Téma indítója: IanW (X)
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IanW (X)
Local time: 01:43
német - angol
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TÉMAINDÍTÓ | Proof of the pudding | Oct 10, 2005 |
Williamson wrote:
Isn't the proof of the pudding the eating?
Well, quite, and - to labour the metaphor of the advertising translation as a pudding - I've never had a non-native pudding which didn't give me severe stomach-ache.
Nothing to do with sinning, boxing matches - or learning curves for that matter. We all have learning curves, have learnt from our mistakes as translators, but I've never had to work my way up an English language learning curve as far as attaining "nativeness" is concerned. And if German companies want to hire people to translate into several different languages, that's their funeral - that would explain the number of wretched German websites in something vaguely resembling English.
And who mentioned interpreting, for Heaven's sake, which is a completely different scenario? No-one expects a translator to deliver sparkling prose - especially when working from German with the verb often right at the end of a labyrithine sentence. I thought an interpreter such as yourself would hardly need to be told that!
This posting is about advertising copy, not "native = good, non-native = bad". If the proof of the pudding really is in the eating, then please show me an advertising translation/copy done by a non-native which compares to the standard of a native speaker advertising translator/copywriter and I will retract my statement.
| | | | Heinrich Pesch 
Finnország
Local time: 02:43
Tag (2003 óta)
finn - német
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| Useless discussion | Oct 10, 2005 |
The habit of using non-natives for translation into English is increasing steadily. The reason is simply, that there are not enough English natives who can grasp the meaning of the source text. We stated this fact only yesterday in the Finnish forum.
It's a fact and there is nothing what you can do about. If native Finnish translators would decline such jobs who do you think would translate the material into English? The customers would have to do it themselves.
When we talk a... See more The habit of using non-natives for translation into English is increasing steadily. The reason is simply, that there are not enough English natives who can grasp the meaning of the source text. We stated this fact only yesterday in the Finnish forum.
It's a fact and there is nothing what you can do about. If native Finnish translators would decline such jobs who do you think would translate the material into English? The customers would have to do it themselves.
When we talk about advertisements, I believe the original translation should be used as a source for a copy-writer, who delivers the final version. Without the translation the guy would not know what its all about, because they do not speak foreign languages.
What would happen if Finnish companies start to send Finnish material to an English marketing agency? The material has to be translated first or written by someone who is not a native speaker of English. There is no other way.
[Edited at 2005-10-10 21:38] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | No useless discussion | Oct 10, 2005 |
Heinrich Pesch wrote:
The reason is simply that there are not enough English natives who can grasp the meaning of the source text. We stated this fact only yesterday in the Finnish forum.
It's a fact and there is nothing what you can do about. If native Finnish translators would decline such jobs who do you think would translate the material into English? The customers would have to do it themselves.
You've made some excellent points, Heinrich, but this by no means a useless discussion. It's always a good thing when pros talk shop, exchange ideas on their profession and learn from each other. You just reminded us that there are exceptions to the rule of translating only into one's own language. Thank you for that.
But your exceptions don't apply to major language pairs such as German, Spanish, French, Italian, etc. There are plenty of native speakers capable of grasping the meaning of the source language and creating well-written translations.
| | | | | What a can of worms! | Oct 11, 2005 |
Ian ...
You are awarded the "Golden Can-Opener" for the month for this one!
I have a relative who actually works in the advertising industry - in American English. Before you can begin to write advertising in your native language you have to have a vocabulary larger than 99.9% of the population. You have to have a love of word play, the ability to make up your own puns, and a wide knowledge of dialect and culture.
You can't take the average translator, ... See more Ian ...
You are awarded the "Golden Can-Opener" for the month for this one!
I have a relative who actually works in the advertising industry - in American English. Before you can begin to write advertising in your native language you have to have a vocabulary larger than 99.9% of the population. You have to have a love of word play, the ability to make up your own puns, and a wide knowledge of dialect and culture.
You can't take the average translator, who does well translating the mundane instructions for toasters and DVD players, and expect them to be able to figure out how to get the same emotiohnal overtones into ad copy ... most writing isn't as dependent on language as advertising is. ▲ Collapse
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Marc P (X)
Local time: 01:43
német - angol
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| Who Needs The Natives II: Advertising copy | Oct 11, 2005 |
Tsu Dho Nimh wrote:
You can't take the average translator, who does well translating the mundane instructions for toasters and DVD players
For what it's worth, I don't think that the "average translator" does "do well" translating "mundane" instructions. Those translating these mundane instructions invariably seem to regard them, as their original authors probably did, as a tiresome chore which keeps the bank happy and allows them to save their intellectual efforts for more sublime areas such as literature and advertising copy.
We have long reached a stage where consumers expect user instructions, particularly in translation, to be of poor quality by default, and a great many translators evidently think that their role in life is to satisfy these expectations. I hear this all the time from translators: "it's just technical", "I do manuals like everyone else", "it's nothing special", "it pays the bills", etc. etc.
Is such a deprecatory attitude to one's own work really compatible with a professional approach? It seems that a moderately talented translator of user instructions who is at least prepared to invest some effort into them is already ahead of 90% of his or her colleagues.
Marc
| | | | | quality... and back to topic | Oct 11, 2005 |
MarcPrior wrote:
We have long reached a stage where consumers expect user instructions, particularly in translation, to be of poor quality by default, and a great many translators evidently think that their role in life is to satisfy these expectations.
s such a deprecatory attitude to one's own work really compatible with a professional approach?
[/quote]
hi everybody,
two points: to me, a person who produces poor quality translations is not a real pro, whether it's DVD manuals or highbrow literature... a professional always aims at top quality, no matter what the client or consumer expects
and (back to topic): I've been reading this discussion from the start, and I have a suggestion... IMHO, translation of advertising copy is actually not translation but rather what is called "localization" (unless you hire two persons, a translator followed by a copywriter, and the translator only produces some kind of rough translation for the copywriter to know what it's all about)
myself, I would never try to "translate" advertising into anything but my mother tongue (the same goes for localization of websites etc.), but I do translate e.g. law texts into English and I see no harm in that (source being my native language, I can much better understand what the author intended to say)...
the best, jk
| | | | Francis Lee (X)
Local time: 01:43
német - angol
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| There seems to be a lot of it/them about | Oct 11, 2005 |
As is evident from the various contributions here, this phenomenon is by no means limited to Germany.
Most of what I would have to say here has already been expressed by colleagues above.
Like Mikhail Kropotov, I am amazed at "how many non-native speakers of English claim to translate into English yet present a profile page that contains grammar and spelling mistakes". Indeed.
Lia Fail and JackieMcC correctly point out the nonsense of references by non-natives to... See more As is evident from the various contributions here, this phenomenon is by no means limited to Germany.
Most of what I would have to say here has already been expressed by colleagues above.
Like Mikhail Kropotov, I am amazed at "how many non-native speakers of English claim to translate into English yet present a profile page that contains grammar and spelling mistakes". Indeed.
Lia Fail and JackieMcC correctly point out the nonsense of references by non-natives to the fact that their command of English is better than your "average" native. It is precisely such a claim that was made by the colleague to which Ian was referring in his opening comments. Sorry, but this in no way qualifies that person as a competent (English) copywriter. Meanwhile, there are plenty of English-speaking translators whose command of their particular foreign/second etc. language might be considered superior to your average native, but they - in general, I stress - tend not to seek and take English-German copywriting/translating jobs.
You wouldn't get a bricklayer to write advertising copy, would you? More importantly, I might add, you wouldn't get a writer/translator to build your house
There are, of course, many non-native translators who write excellent English. Nonetheless, some of them are simply not aware of their own ultimate limitations, i.e. that their STYLE of writing will inevitably be lacking that certain something, and this is what it's all about in the advertising world. Cultural differences mean that a different approach is required for e.g. UK as opposed to German consumers. Spending six months (or even a couple of years back in the 1980s) in an English-speaking country hardly constitutes "immersion" in that culture.
I have the impression that these translators flash a languages/translation degree at customers, who, not knowing any better, assume that these individuals will be able to come up with the goods. We then have a self-perpetuating cycle in which a "satisfied" customer (oblivious to the at best sub-standard quality of their English website/advertising copy) continues to give jobs to non-native translators, thereby further boosting the confidence of the latter.
Here's a "good" example:
http://www.kwf.at/
(click on the British flag)
And I fully understand the sentiments of Textklick when he refers (I assume) to customers who challenge us when the English varies considerably from the source text, i.e. is structurally (and in other regards) barely recognisable from the German. All they want is to meet their own deadline and present their boss/client with a piece of English copy that the latter will like - even if it means precious little to the English-speaking consumers/customers it is aimed at.
I say to those non-native sinners: where is your modesty?
At this (only slightly related) point, however, I would like to stress that German colleagues (generally outside Kudoz, but still) have on numerous occasions provided useful insights concerning certain jobs, and have sometimes even suggested an English phrase that I went on to use. The Kudoz site is in itself a valuable resource, but it also reveals the widespread existence of sub-standard translators (native AND non-native). I shall, however, in future endeavour to limit my comments and opinions to the forum section ... ▲ Collapse
| | | | Textklick
Local time: 00:43
német - angol
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Az Ő emlékére: | What if they are a specialist? | Oct 11, 2005 |
Francis Lee wrote: You wouldn't get a bricklayer to write advertising copy, would you? More importantly, I might add, you wouldn't get a writer/translator to build your house
Hold it right there! Strangely enough, I know a builder who is so gifted and punchy with words that I have asked him why he didn't follow a career in journalism or advertising. To paraphrase his reply, it was partly a matter of who he would feel at ease working with, and it was not unaffected by his present emolumental level.
Conversely though, I'd be quite happy to lumber Klaus Herrmann with fixing my car (as apparently others are , to enlist Gareth McMillan's support to rebuild a grinding machine, to ask for Jerzy's support to fix a PC (don't worry Jerzy, I promise not to), and certainly to ask Kim for advice on restoring antique furniture.
Going back to the topic, I certainly cannot agree fully with Tsu Dho Nimh in terms of the requirements for copywriters.
The ones I have known have been educated and highly intelligent (yet not over-educated), witty - but above all: street wise.
The "dialects" they knew were those variously used by different socio-economic groups. To what extent they were "cultured" was at times a matter of conjecture, although remember that more than a few copywriters have gone on to achieve success as novelists.
Like translators, a motley bunch. Indeed, possibly the only thing most of them had in common was their mother tongue. The language in which they were selling a product which they had been briefed on in detail to a group of people who they understood probably better than that group of people would have wanted them to.
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Are we really still discussing the pros and cons of translating into our passive language? Come on! A professional translator would never do that, let alone translating advertising copy! If you think you can do that, you are only kidding yourself and you are doing a disservice to our profession.
Giovanni
| | | | Textklick
Local time: 00:43
német - angol
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Az Ő emlékére: | Horses for courses | Oct 11, 2005 |
Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL wrote:
Are we really still discussing the pros and cons of translating into our passive language? Come on! A professional translator would never do that, let alone translating advertising copy! If you think you can do that, you are only kidding yourself and you are doing a disservice to our profession.
Giovanni
Hi:
Sure! Correct me if I am wrong, but this is surely the whole point under discussion?
In my case, I do not 'translate' advertising copy. It is adaptation, rather than translation. Communication of an idea where and if it lends itself to localisation. And that only following detailed discussion with the advertising agency/client. A long, interesting and mutually profitable dialogue inevitably arises.
There are, incidentally translation agencies which specialise in adapting advertising copy. They almost invariably have mother tongue reviewers on board.
Possibly they are doing a disservice to our profession, maybe I am. The proprietors of many major brands seem to think not.
As I have said, the word is specialisation.
May I suggest you have a re-read and consider where your contention that "A professional translator would never do that, let alone translating advertising copy!" is indeed fully appropriate?
Rgds
Chris
| | | | | Ok, squirm on then, you can't win | Oct 11, 2005 |
Guilty as charged, your honours.
This discussion reminds me somewhat of this:
"Smiley presented an odd figure to his fellow passengers - a little, fat man, rather gloomy, suddenly smiling, ordering a drink. The young, fair-haired man beside him examined him out of the corner of his eye. He knew the type well - the tired executive out for a bit of fun. He found it rather disgusting" (John le Carré, "Call for the dead").
And no, I would never translate marketing c... See more Guilty as charged, your honours.
This discussion reminds me somewhat of this:
"Smiley presented an odd figure to his fellow passengers - a little, fat man, rather gloomy, suddenly smiling, ordering a drink. The young, fair-haired man beside him examined him out of the corner of his eye. He knew the type well - the tired executive out for a bit of fun. He found it rather disgusting" (John le Carré, "Call for the dead").
And no, I would never translate marketing copy into any language. Yes, I translate technical manuals and contracts into English. In the Netherlands (at translator's college) we are taught to (also) translate into our second language. And I hate to admit it, my English teacher was a non-native. Then again, I share my life with my English proofreader, does that save me or not quite?
This discussion seems to be centered around "English" natives - English is also a 'Lingua Franca', used by many non-natives to communicate with each other. As Heinrich already said, if all texts to be translated into English had to be translated by English natives, you would probably need half the English population to translate into English. They would have to know the source language and be experts on the subject matter...
I do review texts into English as well and that's where my proofreader comes in very handy, he checks the English and I check if the English actually says the same as the original. Quite important in a contract, or a technical manual. That is what Danilo Nogeira calls style vs stylus (*).
A last point, which is about "Love thy neighbours". We use English here at ProZ in the forums, and I find it not correct to ridicule people because of their 'poor' English, especially if they translate into French. This is supposed to be a discussion, not a 'bash the non-natives', or is it?
My two cents, I was not going to open this can of worms, but, as usual, I could not keep my mouth shut...
(*) I would like to recommend Danilo Nogeira's article:
http://www.proz.com/translation-articles/articles/289/1/Sorry-Guys,-You-Can't-Win
"If you translate into a foreign language, your style will be non-native. If you translate into your own language, you'll miss the point of the original. If you live abroad, your native language will get a bit rusty, and you'll never write the foreign language like a real native does. If you are a translator, you'll fail to grasp the fine technical points of the original or to convey them to the reader using the appropriate language. If you are a non-translator you should be doing your thing, not translating, because you do not know how to translate. If you do not have a degree, you lack the necessary theoretical foundation. If you have a degree, you lack the necessary practice.
You can't win." ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Explanation... | Oct 11, 2005 |
Textklick wrote:
May I suggest you have a re-read and consider where your contention that "A professional translator would never do that, let alone translating advertising copy!" is indeed fully appropriate?
Rgds
Chris
What I meant is: a professional translator would never translate out of his/her native language, let alone translating advertising copy out of his/her native language. Obviously, I didn't express myself clearly before.
Giovanni
[Edited at 2005-10-11 12:06]
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Marc P (X)
Local time: 01:43
német - angol
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| Who Needs The Natives II: Advertising copy | Oct 11, 2005 |
Textklick wrote:
Sure! Correct me if I am wrong, but this is surely the whole point under discussion?
I understand Giovanni to mean that translation into the non-native language is unprofessional, translating advertising copy into the foreign language all the more so. NOT that "translating" advertising copy as such unprofessional. Perhaps Giovanni can clarify.
In my case, I do not 'translate' advertising copy. It is adaptation, rather than translation.
Ideally, I would like to apply that to all translation. Every translation should be fit for its intended purpose and may as such require some adaptation of content. Why limit this concept to advertising copy (adaptation) and software (localization)? Why is a "literal translation" good enough for technical documentation? It may require adaptation on a smaller scale, but the principle still applies. I think the only reason this is assumed not to be the case is the poor status enjoyed by technical documentation; the translators of it all to often fail to put themselves in the shoes of the poor user.
I've said this before, here and elsewhere, but have always had the impression of being in a minority of one.
Marc
P.S.
Giovanni wrote:
Obviously, I didn't express myself clearly.
Ah, but then Textclick didn't consider the context. (No offence, Chris. )
[Edited at 2005-10-11 12:09]
| | | | IanW (X)
Local time: 01:43
német - angol
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TÉMAINDÍTÓ
Anjo Sterringa wrote:
This discussion seems to be centered around "English" natives - English is also a 'Lingua Franca', used by many non-natives to communicate with each other.
Yes, but that's hardly surprising, because the poster is an English native speaker and English is the language in which this type of thing occurs most often. And although the language is widely used as kind of business Esperanto, this should not extend to things like advertising, where non-native writing skills (and most native writing skills) do not cut the mustard. That - and none other - is my point.
A last point, which is about "Love thy neighbours". We use English here at ProZ in the forums, and I find it not correct to ridicule people because of their 'poor' English, especially if they translate into French .
If I went on the French site and said - in deplorable French - that I am perfectly entitled to translate into French and will continue to do so, and natives came along and picked holes in my command of their language, I would say that it serves me right.
(*) I would like to recommend Danilo Nogeira's article:
"If you translate into a foreign language, your style will be non-native. If you translate into your own language, you'll miss the point of the original.
u can't win."
[/quote]
This is just one person's opinion, which I for one think is a load of dingo's kidneys. I would say that if a person translates into his/her own language and "misses the point of the original", he/she is a bad translator. Full stop.
| | | | | Is this the English forum? | Oct 11, 2005 |
[quote]Ian Winick wrote:
A last point, which is about "Love thy neighbours". We use English here at ProZ in the forums, and I find it not correct to ridicule people because of their 'poor' English, especially if they translate into French .
If I went on the French site and said - in deplorable French - that I am perfectly entitled to translate into French and will continue to do so, and natives came along and picked holes in my command of their language, I would say that it serves me right.
Most of the general forums are in English, and that was the point I was trying to make. 'Everybody' is entitled to their opinion, and it is very easy not to address the point somebody is trying to make, but start complaining about the poster's command of English.
Of course you are entitled to your opinion, which I (even) partly share, but it is an opinion, let's not forget that. Full stop....
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