| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4] > | Disagrees in KudoZ and political correctness Thread poster: AllegroTrans
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Francis Lee (X)
Local time: 00:22
German to English
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| Limited time | Jul 16, 2007 |
Margreet Logmans wrote:
What does annoy me, however, is if there is only one answer to a question and people disagree without making suggestions.
Why not? Sometimes I come across a question where there's only one answer and it's a very poor one. I feel no obligation to post an answer (which means investing valuable time) just because I disagree with a bad answer. The message is: don't take this answer, keep searching ...
Margreet Logmans wrote:
After all, we're trying to help one another here.
This is sadly not the case with all colleagues.
Margreet Logmans wrote:
And I am assuming they tried their best.
This is relevant to the poster's secondary point: that many non-natives hugely overestimate their mastery of (in this case) English. "Their best" is in many cases very sub-standard - whether they're aware of it or not.
From my experience, those whose English is "top" are more likely to appreciate/listen to criticism than those whose English is at best average.
Margreet Logmans wrote:
all too often I see just the red letters 'disagree' without any explanation. That is a pity.
Certainly. I feel that Disagrees always require some kind of explanation. OK, sometimes there's a really off-beat/bad answer where colleagues have already disagreed and stated the reasons why - in which case, I say "ditto".
But you're right: simply posting a Disagree is generally not helpful to anyone. I've not seen it on the Ger-Eng site, but it might well be a "political" issue, i.e. you disagree with me, so I'll disagree with you.
| | | | AllegroTrans 
United Kingdom
Local time: 23:22
Member (2011)
French to English
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TOPIC STARTER | WHAT A VAST RANGE OF OPINIONS! | Jul 16, 2007 |
Just looking at all the comments goes to show how many different ways people interpret when and when not to use the agree/neutral/disagree options.
It's quite clear that for every KudoZ user who enters a "diasagree" (hopefully with an explanation) there is another who would give a "neutral" (and vice versa).
With all the debate in the world I cannot see any way to reach a consensus. We all have our different thresholds.
It all goes to prove that whatever peer comments you rece... See more Just looking at all the comments goes to show how many different ways people interpret when and when not to use the agree/neutral/disagree options.
It's quite clear that for every KudoZ user who enters a "diasagree" (hopefully with an explanation) there is another who would give a "neutral" (and vice versa).
With all the debate in the world I cannot see any way to reach a consensus. We all have our different thresholds.
It all goes to prove that whatever peer comments you receive (and the more the merrier as they say) you should take them as positive contributions (except on the rare occasions when they are unmerited).
If there is a consensus here at all, it is that peer comments should be as helpful as possible, and I for one will be taking this to heart and will attempt to be as helpful as I can.
However, I do firmly believe that "diasgree" should not be interpreted as a putdown and it is sad that some users see it that way.
Having said that (and this is addressed to KudoZ management) maybe more space could be allotted for peer comments (e.g. as much as is allotted for one of these forum topic posts perhaps) - this would make it alot easier to be constructive rather than brief. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Most peer comments are shorter than the allowed space | Jul 16, 2007 |
AllegroTrans wrote:
Having said that (and this is addressed to KudoZ management) maybe more space could be allotted for peer comments (e.g. as much as is allotted for one of these forum topic posts perhaps) - this would make it alot easier to be constructive rather than brief.
Most peer comments are shorter than the allowed space. If you need "as much (space) as is allotted for one of these forum topic posts" for a KudoZ question then maybe you should consider posting an answer with all that information.
Cheers,
Enrique
| | | | Irene N
United States
Local time: 17:22
English to Russian
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| Not again... | Jul 16, 2007 |
Francis Lee wrote:
after giving non-native-English-speakers a Disagree on justified grounds are due to the latter's narrow-minded view?
Francis,
Seems to me that you just said what you wanted to say without any true reference to the context of my post. I'm sorry if my name acts as a red flag in front of your eyes:-)...
For one, where did you see anything like that?
For two, I'm not about to re-iterate the difference between non-native and not knowleageable. If you wish to see a non-native flag first and check the answer second, this is not my problem. Do you always agree with the native answer regardless? What exactly nativeness has to do with anything here? Wrong is wrong, right is right. Nothing more to clarify.
Best,
Irene
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| Contact a moderator if you are 'bombarded' with messages - it is against the rules | Jul 16, 2007 |
AllegroTrans wrote:
Several times (not TOO many, I am not a Victor Meldrew clone) I have made "diasgree" comments ...
Having said that, on one or two occasions, I have been bombarded by the person I disagreed with by messages amounting to "how dare you?" and even, on two occasions, a tirade of stuff that seemed to be implying that I had personally insulted the answerer.
Now, I am man (person) enough (and old enough) not to take this kind of thing too seriously, but am I right here in thinking that others have experienced similar and that perhaps this is the reason for all the nice polite "neutrals" that are now seemingly the norm (and which when you read them quite often ought to be "diasagrees"?
This is against the rules of KudoZ.
Comments must be linguistic, and not 'tirades' or personal comments.
Rule 3.7 says:
Commentary on askers or answerers, and their postings or decisions to post, is not allowed. Comments or insinuations concerning an answerer's or asker's experience or profile, his/her decision to post a certain question or answer, grade or close a question in a certain way, make a certain glossary entry, etc., are strictly prohibited (whether posted publicly, made directly to the person in question, or made to another site user).
-- and this applies to peer comments too.
| | | | Patrice
United States
Local time: 15:22
Member
French to English
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| Not sure what you mean here....because I think we're agreeing but not sure | Jul 16, 2007 |
IreneN wrote: Patricia Struyk wrote:
Let people learn from disagrees My understanding of the purpose of disagree always was "let US learn from disagrees". Kinda proves my point...
I think we had the same point. So I'm not clear if you or I misunderstood here.
| | | | Margreet Logmans (X)
Netherlands
Local time: 00:22
English to Dutch
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| Thanks, Francis... | Jul 17, 2007 |
... for your comprehensive response to my comments.
I see your point - time IS limited.
I also see your point with regard to the quality of answers given by people that over-estimate their own language skills. (I'm sure I'm one of them sometimes).
But, you know, I like the KudoZ system so much! It's challenging, interesting, instructive, interactive - hope it stays that way for a long time.
Best,
Margreet
| | | | Francis Lee (X)
Local time: 00:22
German to English
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| Knowing one's limits | Jul 17, 2007 |
IreneN wrote:
To participate in an international discussion, to offer your opinion to the rest of the world and expect nothing but agree...
If you read the initial post, you'll see it's about aggressive responses to justified disagrees. If you read what you wrote (above), you'll perhaps see why you appear to agree with the poster.
IreneN wrote:
I'm sorry if my name acts as a red flag in front of your eyes:-)...
Not the case. But it seems to me that any mention of "native-speaker" (which the initial poster specifically addressed) is lke a red flag to you.
IreneN wrote:
Do you always agree with the native answer regardless?
Of course not. Any evidence to suggest that?
IreneN wrote:
What exactly nativeness has to do with anything here?
It's a very relevant point that you seem to have missed. There are, of course, poor-quality native-speakers out there - but it's very frustrating when non-native-speakers are informed that their answers are inadequate and then turn on the other colleague. AllegroTrans referred to comments such as "how dare you" etc. - not necessarily always from non-natives, but more often than not, I can imagine.
IreneN wrote:
Wrong is wrong, right is right. Nothing more to clarify.
If it were that simple, Kudoz would be redundant. Are you in a position to say that a solution is "right"?
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RHELLER
United States
Local time: 16:22
French to English
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| Good evening :-) | Jul 18, 2007 |
Very interesting discussion!
Seems I 'm a bit late but I finally had time to read all the way through.
1) Neutral is a valid option - much more subtle than a disagree
2) I like to take the point of view of the asker; my goal is to help the asker.
3) I too have been sent "how dare you?" notes privately, to which I promptly replied that these were against kudoz rules! That has definitely been the most aggravating side of kudoz for me. As if som... See more Very interesting discussion!
Seems I 'm a bit late but I finally had time to read all the way through.
1) Neutral is a valid option - much more subtle than a disagree
2) I like to take the point of view of the asker; my goal is to help the asker.
3) I too have been sent "how dare you?" notes privately, to which I promptly replied that these were against kudoz rules! That has definitely been the most aggravating side of kudoz for me. As if some people think they have the right to make you modify your opinion! These are the bullies of the proz playground and it is sad that they cannot accept opposing points of view.
If I get a disagree, I have 2 options:
- if I remain convinced, I will not change my answer
- or, if I feel I have made a mistake, I will hide the answer in order to make things very clear for the asker and for future kudoz reference.
I think Kudoz is very helpful. I use it when I am stuck and I try to help others when I have the time. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Steffen Walter
Germany
Local time: 00:22
Member (2002)
English to German
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| Why hide your answer? | Jul 18, 2007 |
Rita Heller wrote:
If I get a disagree, I have 2 options:
- if I remain convinced, I will not change my answer
- or, if I feel I have made a mistake, I will hide the answer in order to make things very clear for the asker and for future kudoz reference.
Hi Rita,
A comment on your second option above: I do believe that it is rather counter-productive to hide your answer as this may lead to confusion with respect to the "course of events" up to that point. What I prefer, by contrast, is to let my (wrong) answer stand and add a note clearly stating that I was wrong, to keep everyone involved in the picture.
My 2c,
Steffen
| | | | RHELLER
United States
Local time: 16:22
French to English
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I see your point but I do use the KOG and find it painful to have to read lengthy entries - especially when I am working on a deadline.
I will consider it next time.
Thanks.
| | | | zsuzsa369 (X)
Local time: 23:22
English to Hungarian
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| Hiding wrong answers | Jul 19, 2007 |
Rita Heller wrote:
If I get a disagree, I have 2 options:
- if I remain convinced, I will not change my answer
- or, if I feel I have made a mistake, I will hide the answer in order to make things very clear for the asker and for future kudoz reference.
I agree with Rita here. It's best to hide wrong answers, otherwise they will come up in the Glossary as possible solutions, which can be confusing.
Someone has recently graded one of my answers as 'Neutral' but his explanation made me realise that my suggestion was actually wrong. He was trying to be nice about it (which I do appreciate by the way!) but if I hadn't deleted my answer, it would show up as a second option in the Glossary.
On the other hand, I've also received a 'Neutral' (with a comment implying that my answer was wrong) on a suggestion which I think is not only valid but also by far the best suggestion compared to the others posted. I will definitely leave this visible even if it is trashed by my peers.
To be honest, I'm very new to Proz, but I can't help noticing that there's a kind of rivalry going on for the KudoZ, which doesn't always seem professional. Am I just imagining this?
Zsuzsa
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RHELLER
United States
Local time: 16:22
French to English
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| rivalry for kudoz | Jul 19, 2007 |
Welcome Zsuzsa!
You are not imagining it.
Kudoz askers award points to the "best" answer and these points are added up and affect one's ranking in the directory.
This has been the subject of much discussion here and you can read the forums by doing a forum search on kudoz.
Professionalism should steer us to be polite AND accurate.
Good luck.
| | | | zsuzsa369 (X)
Local time: 23:22
English to Hungarian
+ ...
| Suggestions from a Newcomer | Jul 19, 2007 |
Rita Heller wrote:
Kudoz askers award points to the "best" answer and these points are added up and affect one's ranking in the directory.
Well, this would explain some of my experiences. Personally, I think it would be better if all constructive suggestions were eligible for kudoZ, not just the one that's perceived to be the best. Quite often, the final version is a combination of two or more suggestions anyway, so it would only seem fair that everyone involved should get rewarded.
This would foster team work as opposed to rivalry and more people would feel inspired to come up with new ideas without "threatening" the position of the other members, which might give way to resentment.
Surely, this would be in the interest of the entire website in general and the kudoZ project in particular?
Zsuzsa
| | | | lexical
Spain
Local time: 00:22
Portuguese to English
| let's face it... | Aug 7, 2007 |
...the native speakers in Kudoz pairs rarely disagree with one another, except on points of emphasis. The answerers who cause contributors to post "Disagrees" are nearly always non-native speakers who overestimate their linguistic skills.
In my own pair - PT>EN - it is well-meaning but misguided Portuguese and Brazilian speakers who think they can comment authoritatively on English usage who cause most of the problems.
I can't conceive that a Portuguese or Brazilian wou... See more ...the native speakers in Kudoz pairs rarely disagree with one another, except on points of emphasis. The answerers who cause contributors to post "Disagrees" are nearly always non-native speakers who overestimate their linguistic skills.
In my own pair - PT>EN - it is well-meaning but misguided Portuguese and Brazilian speakers who think they can comment authoritatively on English usage who cause most of the problems.
I can't conceive that a Portuguese or Brazilian would accept that someone born half way up a Scottish mountain should be allowed to pontificate about PT grammar and usage, but they seem to think that someone born half way up the Amazon can do the same for English.
I've found Kudoz quite helpful in the past but I now regard it as largely a waste of time. There are other resources out there that are better. ▲ Collapse
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