| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4] | Changes to be made to the job posting system Thread poster: David Russi
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Krzysztof Kajetanowicz wrote: Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL wrote:
I would like a new feature introduced in the jobs system: since it doesn't look like we'll ever be able to stop the site showing the posters' rates, publicly or not, I suggest every agency on Proz.com and on the Blue Board is forced to publish their average rate, so we can stay well clear from these bottom-feeders... now, that would be doing something for us, the translators... And how, pray tell, would this rate be computed? How would it be verified? hey, I'm paying 50 cents a word - oh wait, for this particular job... After all, it is the translators who scoff at accepting jobs without knowing what they are. What kind of information would it reveal if an agency published an average rate? That they only do very simple / very difficult translations? You want to compare an ousourcer specialized in abdominal oncology with one that localizes general purpose websites? I have another question, this time directed at the site staff. Why is it free to post a job, yet you charge (through the wallet or by charging the membership fee) for responding to a job ad? After all, if I had any $0.02 jobs to offer, I'd have every financial incentive to post one (no cost, possibility of getting a cheap low quality translation). Still, before responding to a job offer, knowing I'd be one of the 50 people that do, I must weigh my options. [Edited at 2010-04-06 10:59 GMT]
I think you missed an important word in my "proposal"... average... we all have an "average rate", or "average range", even agencies...
BTW, I know it will never be implemented... it was a bit tongue in cheek...
[Edited at 2010-04-06 12:48 GMT]
| | | | | My comment in the "Feedback and questions" section at http://www.proz.com/about/ipetition/talk | Apr 7, 2010 |
"Please note, that I set my "Preference concerning client budget information" to "Yes", because I want to see low rates imposed to translators by the outsourcers DISAPPEAR from translators sites altogether, and not just hide them from my eyes!
In addition to that I think, that ALL electronic job posting systems worldwide function as coward reverse auctions aimed to exploit individual freelance translators, that have quite no negotiation power (at least when demand in the given comb... See more "Please note, that I set my "Preference concerning client budget information" to "Yes", because I want to see low rates imposed to translators by the outsourcers DISAPPEAR from translators sites altogether, and not just hide them from my eyes!
In addition to that I think, that ALL electronic job posting systems worldwide function as coward reverse auctions aimed to exploit individual freelance translators, that have quite no negotiation power (at least when demand in the given combination and specialization is lower than supply) in comparison to the outsourcer. SUCH REVERSE AUCTIONS SHOULD BE FORBIDDEN BY ALL GOVERNMENTS WORLDWIDE!
That would be the petition I would write (but to whom?)! The petition at hand I signed only as a first and unfortunately very small step and because there was no better one. ProZ.com would do much better, if it would ditch the job posting system altogether (in this case I would become a paying member), but I know that you are afraid of your competitors (this was discussed here already, but no reaction from you in this direction so far). On the other hand, ProZ.com is the number 1 translator's site in the world for a long time already and I think you could afford the change to ditch the job posting system altogether and to be a pure translators directory for the use by outsourcers. I think the outsourcers would then prefer not to waste so much time bashing our rates down (it would be significantly more difficult to do this using mass mails than with your "near to perfect" system). Maybe they would even realize, that they did something wrong in the last years. Professional translators from other sites, that will still have a reverse auction, would come over to ProZ and pay the member fees here. Wouldn't it be nice?
So please, show a bit more courage and let translators live!
Thank you a lot for considering my standpoint.
René Stranz-Nikitin
(P.S.: Please note that English is neither my target language nor one of my source languages.)"
[Edited at 2010-04-07 09:09 GMT for typo]
[Edited at 2010-04-07 09:10 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | I don't have Trados, either | Apr 7, 2010 |
Laurent KRAULAND wrote: Tracy Greenwood wrote:
Laurent,
If you read the job postings, some will specifically require SDL Trados. If you don't have it, don't waste your time on a quote. This is why I do not bother quoting on Trados jobs anymore, especially when degressive sliding scales are "demanded" by outsourcers. 90% of my clients (direct clients and agencies) do not care about the CAT tool(s) I use as long as the job delivered is up to their quality standards. And yes, I advised one direct client who thought there was no way of translating INDD files -except using InDesign itself; I told him that TagEditor could process INX files... Tracy Greenwood wrote:
But more importantly, my observation is that those who are committed to translation will keep working. Those who are just doing it to pick up a little extra cash will most likely not. Indeed. Tracy Greenwood wrote:
Those that are committed usually have a formal degree, join a professional organization, and invest in some tools of the trade. As you know, language is not something you just dabble in unless you are planning to take a 1 week vacation and just want to order a coffee in the local language. I spent some 4.5 years at university. I am member of an international translators' association. My investments in those tools (+ hardware + firmware + digital security) as per today amount to some 4,500 EUR... and counting. So far, so good... but still my point of view stands: there is no correlation between owning a given tool and being a "good translator": some of the best translators I know are not even interested in them  ... [Edited at 2010-04-02 20:18 GMT]
I take no offense, by the way. And I did not mean that if you don't have Trados you are not a real translator. It's just an example of one of the tools people can invest in.
Schooling, living abroad or extensive travel where the language you are studying is spoken as a native language, software, are investments. Trados is just an example. I don't have it myself, and I don't quote on jobs that require it. I have heard of way too many problems when using it with Japanese.
Besides, I am a freelancer who does this to supplement his income. As a matter of fact, there are some good translations available right now that I won't bid on. I will be doing fewer translations as my day job picks up again. I have a client who is going to be in litigation for the next few years starting Wednesday, 4/7/10. So you'll probably see less of me for a while.
As far as translation tools, I learned how to use a very simple form of translation memory with MS Word in 1995. Find an Replace. And when I had to rewrite the document because I used Replace All, I learned the pitfalls of translation memory a week later. : )
My language pair is Japanese > English, and I translate legal documents. As anybody who has translated a legal document knows, it needs to be done by a human who understands the legal system of both the source and the target languages. I don't think any software developer has mastered that yet. And until they have, I will be supplementing my income.
I guess my subtle attempt at self-deprecating humor did not come through. I don't even count myself as one of the "real" translators. I only do this to supplement my income. Having said that, I only take work that I am qualified for. My day job is much more demanding as far as quality. My work product goes to the US Patent and Trademark Office or a Federal Judge. It does not get much more demanding than that. This is how I know I can satisfy the demands of my clients when I take some freelance work.
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Calliope,
I just wanted to say thank you for your comments. I agree with everything you said.
Regards,
Mr. Tracy Greenwood
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| not a moral issue for saving the translating profession | Apr 7, 2010 |
I think we are missing the point here:
proz.com the TRANSLATION workplace.
also, in proz.com basics it is clearly stated that:
Serving the world's largest community of translators, ProZ.com delivers a comprehensive network of essential services, resources and experiences that enhance the lives of its members. Here is a list and summary of the most basic features.
So we have a site, in which translators PAY to be members of, and which should service th... See more I think we are missing the point here:
proz.com the TRANSLATION workplace.
also, in proz.com basics it is clearly stated that:
Serving the world's largest community of translators, ProZ.com delivers a comprehensive network of essential services, resources and experiences that enhance the lives of its members. Here is a list and summary of the most basic features.
So we have a site, in which translators PAY to be members of, and which should service their needs. Now in this site, regulation of what is a fair and equitable price for translating services, is done by the client! And, not only do I allow my client to set his lowest price, I then open my workshop, which I am paying for, to people who are doing the same job as myself, to come in and accept this lowest price.
Now I ask you simply: when setting up a workplace, do you:
a)put up a sign saying come into my workplace, and tell me what you can afford to pay me?
b)state that the minimum rate for my services would be this, with possible surcharges depending on the complexity of the work, special characteristics etc.
The fair and equitable minimum price is very easy to set for proz. Merely have all paying members which have registered themselves for specific pairs, state what they think is that minimum price.
[Edited at 2010-04-07 10:02 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Calliope Sofianopoulos (X) 
Australia
Local time: 17:56
Greek to English
+ ...
| Generally, I agree! | Apr 7, 2010 |
René Stranz-Nikitin wrote:
In addition to that I think, that ALL electronic job posting systems worldwide function as coward reverse auctions aimed to exploit individual freelance translators, that have quite no negotiation power (at least when demand in the given combination and specialization is lower than supply) in comparison to the outsourcer. SUCH REVERSE AUCTIONS SHOULD BE FORBIDDEN BY ALL GOVERNMENTS WORLDWIDE!
I agree with you in general. I only have one problem with your post here. Translation is a multi-billion dollar industry. Last year, smack bang in the middle of an ailing economy, in the US alone, in a country which was the largest ailing patient of the economic crisis, the translation industry was said to be worth $5.7 billion (http://www.pr.com/press-release/133106).
I don't purport to be an economist, but I dare say that in my opinion we are way better off financially than we were last year and that there is definitely NOT more supply than demand in our profession. We have to understand that participating in a reverse auction system for all these years is a direct consequence of proz.com policy, not the result of supply vs demand!
Judging by the amount of translators who are not paying membership, the posting of the petition, the fact that Henry is now willing to discuss his options, and our conversations in this forum, I can bet my bottom dollar that things are going to be changing fast. However, as translators, we have to be very careful about what we ask for!
We are the ones that pay the membership fees for proz.com to survive. We are the ones upon whom this industry relies. Without us, the translation industry does not exist. If we ask for something now, we are bound to get it. Do we really want to ask that the outsourcers show their bottom budget for a job? It feels like we've been dying for a long time and we are given one last wish and we waste it on something like "I want to SEE who it is that will kill me". Why ask for something that will not change the way we work considerably? Why waste our voice on something that will not make a real difference?
Lets imagine for a minute that this request is granted and every outsourcer on proz.com is asked to add to the blueboard what their bottom price is. What will that change? The bottom price? Hardly! The same translators that were bidding on lower priced translations will just continue to give lower prices to these outsources, as they will still think that "if they don't, somebody else will".
We have a vote here. The reason we have a vote is because we have paid our dues, we have paid our membership fees (either now or in the past) and Henry and the site will not get any money if the site does not have paying members. It's as simple as that. Lets not waste our vote on things that won't benefit us.
It may well be that proz.com benefited us in the hey days, when it first started out. I also got a large client from proz.com in 2004. They paid me AU$0.16 per word back then, a very reasonable price for an agency that kept on sending me a couple of thousand dollars worth of work every month. The reason I don't work for them any more is that they still pay their translators AU$0.16 per word in 2010. My rates have changed, theirs haven't. Guess where they find their 0.16 translators now? On proz.com! In comparison, they are one of the highest paying agencies on proz.com today. I don't know of any other profession or occupation on the face of this earth of ours that still gets paid the same (or less in many cases) as what they were paid six years ago! Especially in view of the fact that demand is actually rising, way above supply. The difference is that proz.com gets the cheapest end of the market BECAUSE OF (not in spite of) the reverse auction system forced upon us.
By the way, membership fees on proz.com rose from US$70 in 2004 (correct me if I'm wrong), to US$129 in 2010!!!
I repeat: either get rid of the bidding system altogether, or we shouldn't pay for membership again. If the bidding system stays the way it is, the only ones profiting are the agencies so they should be financing it via their membership fees, NOT US! Let us post our qualifications, let us post our general rates, and make the clients come to us with a job for which we can quote them directly. Anything else will only benefit the clients.
| | | | Calliope Sofianopoulos (X)
Australia
Local time: 17:56
Greek to English
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| Thanks for the acknowledgement... | Apr 7, 2010 |
Tracy Greenwood wrote:
Calliope,
I just wanted to say thank you for your comments. I agree with everything you said.
Regards,
Mr. Tracy Greenwood
I've been yelling at the top of my voice in the Greek forums for years. Now that I see that something seems to be moving in our direction, it's time to see if I can help put our real interests into perspective for all of us. Hope I'm helping.
| | | | Dmitrie Highduke
Ukraine
Local time: 10:56
Member (2008)
English to Ukrainian
+ ...
| Nothing changed | Apr 12, 2010 |
I have some doubt concerning the efficiency of the new job posting system. I just found a job posting with the following budget: 200.00 EUR to 500.00 EUR for 25,000 words, i.e. 0.008 EUR to 0.02 EUR per source word.
And here's the number of quotes the job-poster received:
Total: 286
By language pair:
- English to Chinese: 29
- English to Russian: 41
- English to Spanish: 63
- English to French: 32
- German to Italian: 24
- English to I... See more I have some doubt concerning the efficiency of the new job posting system. I just found a job posting with the following budget: 200.00 EUR to 500.00 EUR for 25,000 words, i.e. 0.008 EUR to 0.02 EUR per source word.
And here's the number of quotes the job-poster received:
Total: 286
By language pair:
- English to Chinese: 29
- English to Russian: 41
- English to Spanish: 63
- English to French: 32
- German to Italian: 24
- English to Italian: 55
- German to Russian: 17
- German to French: 8
- German to Chinese: 10
- German to Spanish: 7
So I'm not sure that any measures may help to overcome the existing situation... ▲ Collapse
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Laurent KRAULAND (X)
France
Local time: 09:56
French to German
+ ...
| Even worse... | Apr 12, 2010 |
Dmitrie Highduke wrote:
I have some doubt concerning the efficiency of the new job posting system. I just found a job posting with the following budget: 200.00 EUR to 500.00 EUR for 25,000 words, i.e. 0.008 EUR to 0.02 EUR per source word.
Even worse: I received a job posting notification for this although my filters are supposed to ignore rates lower than the minimum ones indicated in my profile.
| | | | Jean Chao
United States
Local time: 00:56
English to Chinese
+ ...
| 20 days left to decide whehter to renew my Certified Pro... | Apr 21, 2010 |
Hi, Calliope,
Thanks for providing a great perspective to my decision process--whether to renew my membership (i.e. my Certified Pro) or not. Seriously, Certified Pro is all that's left in the pros and cons analysis.
My record shows that I've been with Proz.com for almost eleven years (the system has better memory than human brain), but I didn't really try to turn my translation hobby to a business until last year. I was just having too much fun translating business... See more Hi, Calliope,
Thanks for providing a great perspective to my decision process--whether to renew my membership (i.e. my Certified Pro) or not. Seriously, Certified Pro is all that's left in the pros and cons analysis.
My record shows that I've been with Proz.com for almost eleven years (the system has better memory than human brain), but I didn't really try to turn my translation hobby to a business until last year. I was just having too much fun translating business books and periodicals, so I kept avoiding the "commercial" side of the translation business. I paid my membership fee last May, built my profile page, answered KudoZ questions (if it's not hogged by some particular person), and kept thinking things will get better. I did have a few odd jobs here and there if I was lucky enough to win out the 1/4 of this world population, but by a full-time translator's standard, I can barely make a living.
I'm here to figure out whether I want to do commercial translation for the rest of my life, not to grab any job I can get through this bidding process. I've learned a lot from this portal ever since I paid my membership last year, but as you pointed out, I don't feel my membership fee has provided me with any competitive advantage against the low-bidders.
So I'm still debating...and have 20 more days to decide whether this Certified Pro is worth US$129...when most of the jobs from the posting system are probably grabbed by the non-paying members.
Jean ▲ Collapse
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