| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3] | American English is a dialect? Thread poster: Catherine Bolton
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Terry Gilman 
Germany
Local time: 10:05
Member (2003)
German to English
+ ...
| Regional variety as an option | Aug 21, 2005 |
I always felt we had the option to specify a regional variety when asking questions. I can imagine that programming an option or a prompt into Kudoz will reduce the grounds for irritation, and that's great. I agree with the reminders about audience tailoring.
I'm not enthusiastic about cordoning off two or more varieties of English into separate camps (I doubt anyone is), but in writing that I mainly wanted to begin by expressing agreement with Catherine before saying, yes, I think... See more I always felt we had the option to specify a regional variety when asking questions. I can imagine that programming an option or a prompt into Kudoz will reduce the grounds for irritation, and that's great. I agree with the reminders about audience tailoring.
I'm not enthusiastic about cordoning off two or more varieties of English into separate camps (I doubt anyone is), but in writing that I mainly wanted to begin by expressing agreement with Catherine before saying, yes, I think AmE is a dialect, along with BrE.
Kirill, thanks a lot for your quote on "dialect," which explains the quandary well. To uphold the standing of the site, we have know that dialect is the proper word, but contaminated.
I've experienced the bias against New World languages, but hadn't associated it specifically with the word "dialect," probably because I don't often have such discussions. So now I know, and I appreciate it. Jeff, I also appreciated your post and many links, especially as someone without the benefit of the education that others have enjoyed.
PS: Konstantin, I agree with you, but I think other AmE speakers here might also recoil at your example: "A couple small changes were made Wednesday" - perfectly acceptable in a US newspaper." The phrase may have made it into print (possibly as a quote?), but in my (ahem) dialect it should have included "of."
[Edited at 2005-08-21 16:42]
[Edited at 2005-08-21 16:49] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Kirill Semenov
Ukraine
Local time: 11:05
Member (2004)
English to Russian
+ ...
| Regional differences don't work anymore | Aug 21, 2005 |
Terry Gilman wrote:
I always felt we had the option to specify a regional variety when asking questions.
Just a note: with English as lingua franca we cannot even specify some "dialects" by their locations. Say, the Afro-American English has no distinct region to localize, it's a general US reality.
[Edited at 2005-08-21 19:23]
| | | | Michele Fauble
United States
Local time: 01:05
Member (2006)
Norwegian to English
+ ...
| Dialect as a neutral term | Aug 21, 2005 |
Marcus Malabad wrote:
"Aren't we, as language pros, supposed to reject pedestrian notions of language? This could be debased to crude generalizations like "X English is a dialect of UK English" (hence, unwittingly, inferior). The political undercurrent triggered by the word 'dialect' cannot be denied. We need a neutral term and 'variant' or 'variety' suits our purposes well without coming with the excess baggage of extra-linguistic judgments."
Yes, Marcus, and the whole point of my postings has been that, as language professionals, and on a site for language professionals, not the general public, we should be able to use the word 'dialect' as it is used in linguistics, where it IS a neutral term and does not carry "the excess baggage of extra-linguistic judgments."
"The political undercurrent triggered by the word 'dialect' cannot be denied."
No, but it can be rejected, as it has been by modern linguistics.
Finally, when discussing LANGUAGE, does it make sense for LANGUAGE professionals to reject a term from the SCIENCE OF LANGUAGE because that term is misunderstood and abused by the general public?
[Edited at 2005-08-22 04:18]
[Edited at 2005-08-22 04:49]
[Edited at 2005-08-23 21:06]
| | | | Kirill Semenov
Ukraine
Local time: 11:05
Member (2004)
English to Russian
+ ...
| Now, please... | Aug 21, 2005 |
Michele, now you arguing not with me but with a language scholar who wrote a great book on how English is used in the world - and I highly recommend the book (`Oxford Guide to Wolrd English') to anyone who is interested in the topic. Your arguments like:
It seems that many translators are unfamiliar with this use of the term 'dialect' and instead operate with a "man in the street" concept contrasting 'language' with 'dialect', and for this reason seem to prefer the term 'language variety', (which, strictly speaking, includes not only 'dialect' but also 'sociolect' and 'idiolect'.
just don't follow the modern trends, because they are old-fashioned. And please don't play on the `professionalism' string, the word `dialect' does sound abusive to many professionals here, whether you will it or not. The confusion in the understanding among the common folks leads up to questions like "If Croatian is the same as Serbian?" or "If Ukrainian is just a dialect of Russian?". With English being a lingua franca these days, please accept that there are many "Englishes" and f9orget "the standard English" with so many dialects.
Michele Fauble wrote:
...we should be able to use the word 'dialect' as it is used in linguistics, where it is a neutral term and does not carry "the excess baggage of extra-linguistic judgments."
[Edited at 2005-08-21 22:33]
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Michele Fauble
United States
Local time: 01:05
Member (2006)
Norwegian to English
+ ...
| Dialect and variety | Aug 22, 2005 |
The use of the term 'dialect' (and 'sociolect', idiolect', etc.') is alive and well in the field of linguistics, as a perusal of the linguistic literature will attest. However, it does seem that when addressing the broader public, language scolars often find it wise to avoid the term, instead preferring the term (geographical) variety, which does not arouse the same emotions as 'dialect' does among those unfamiliar with the term's scientific, non-judgmental use by linguists.
... See more The use of the term 'dialect' (and 'sociolect', idiolect', etc.') is alive and well in the field of linguistics, as a perusal of the linguistic literature will attest. However, it does seem that when addressing the broader public, language scolars often find it wise to avoid the term, instead preferring the term (geographical) variety, which does not arouse the same emotions as 'dialect' does among those unfamiliar with the term's scientific, non-judgmental use by linguists.
[Edited at 2005-08-23 21:09] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Take a linguistics course | Aug 23, 2005 |
If you take a course in linguistics, one of the first concepts they will teach you are the differences between language and dialect.
A language is a distinct system of oral/written communication that prevents people who do not know it from understanding those who do or communicating with them. English and Spanish are languages. If you have not learned Spanish you will not be able to communicate with a Colombian or a Costa Rican unless they speak English. A Mexican and an Argentinian cannot... See more If you take a course in linguistics, one of the first concepts they will teach you are the differences between language and dialect.
A language is a distinct system of oral/written communication that prevents people who do not know it from understanding those who do or communicating with them. English and Spanish are languages. If you have not learned Spanish you will not be able to communicate with a Colombian or a Costa Rican unless they speak English. A Mexican and an Argentinian cannot talk to an Australian or a Jamaican unless they have taken English as a Second Language or lived in an English-speaking country long enough to learn it by ear.
A dialect is a regional variation of a language with peculiar vocabulary, grammar, and/or pronunciation that make it distinct and unique but that still do not prevent communication between people who speak different dialects of the same language. Mexican Spanish, Argentinian Spanish and European Spanish are distinct dialects of the same language easily identified by a native Spanish speaker, with many specific differences that make the teaching of "Spanish" very tricky and translation from and into Spanish very difficult. However, being born and raised in Cuba does not prevent me from understanding and communicating with people from those three countries, even though we may sometimes need clarification as to what each of us means with a specific expression.
The same happens with American English, British English, Canadian English, Australian English, South African English, etc.
I work as a translator for a bank in Canada and, as much as I like American English, they demand that I stick to the spelling and vocabulary typical of Canadian English, which are recorded in dictionaries about this dialect published by Oxford and Collins. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | different terminology between countries | Aug 23, 2005 |
Jane Lamb-Ruiz says "An operant rule of thumb also in this regard is: the more "intellectual" or "abstract" the text, the less difference there is. In general. The more popular the register, the more the difference. For example, a farmer from some region of Peru will speak differently from some farmer from a region of Spain. However, agronomists from those two countries writing about agriculture will use the same words in Spanish in the field of agronomy/agriculture. This is just an example." ... See more Jane Lamb-Ruiz says "An operant rule of thumb also in this regard is: the more "intellectual" or "abstract" the text, the less difference there is. In general. The more popular the register, the more the difference. For example, a farmer from some region of Peru will speak differently from some farmer from a region of Spain. However, agronomists from those two countries writing about agriculture will use the same words in Spanish in the field of agronomy/agriculture. This is just an example."
I have to disagree, all too many of the terms used in engineering in Mexico are very different from the terms used in other countries. And there is a similar problem with law.
I think English has lost a lot of its dialectical variations because of Hollywood and television, but Spanish, for one, has not undergone the same effect. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Michele Fauble
United States
Local time: 01:05
Member (2006)
Norwegian to English
+ ...
| No clear-cut distinction between language and dialect | Aug 23, 2005 |
Orestes Robledo wrote:
If you take a course in linguistics, one of the first concepts they will teach you are the differences between language and dialect.
A language is a distinct system of oral/written communication that prevents people who do not know it from understanding those who do or communicating with them.
Taking a course in linguistics is something that I highly recommend, especially for anyone in a profession such as translation, where language is the focus.
But one of the things you will learn is that the distinction between language and dialect is anything but simple and clear-cut, and difficult to draw on purely linguistic grounds.
A speaker of Norwegian and a speaker of Swedish can communicate quite easily with each other, yet these are different languages. Dutch speakers and German speakers along the Dutch-German border manage to communicate with each other. Even speakers of Spanish and Italian often manage to communicate with each other in their respective languages.
On the other hand, speakers of the same language may have great difficulty in, or even fail at, communicating with each other without resorting to the standard dialect (the "language"). The same German speaker who could easily communicate with the Dutch speaker, would have to use standard German to speak with a German speaker from Switzerland.
A common situation around the world is that speakers from village A can understand speakers from village B, who can understand speakers from village C, and so on until village ZZZ, and speakers from villages J and M can understand each other well, but have difficulty understanding speakers from A and B, or S, T, U, etc., and speakers from A and B cannot understand speakers from S,T,U, etc. at all.
Historical, social, and political factors are major determinants of which dialects attain the status of "language".
[Edited at 2005-08-23 20:36]
[Edited at 2005-08-23 21:36]
[Edited at 2005-08-23 22:21]
[Edited at 2005-08-23 22:22]
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IanW (X)
Local time: 10:05
German to English
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| For the purposes of KudoZ ... | Aug 24, 2005 |
For the purposes of KudoZ, I feel there is little point in getting into a battle of linguistics. What is needed is a simple system whereby the answer to "Lieblingsfarbe" can be given as "favourite colour" (variety: UK English) or "favourite color" (variety: US English). I think the word "variety" is neutral enough to work without treading on anyone's toes.
[Edited at 2005-08-24 06:25]
| | | | Textklick
Local time: 09:05
German to English
+ ...
In memoriam | I'll second that | Aug 24, 2005 |
Ian Winick wrote:
For the purposes of KudoZ, I feel there is little point in getting into a battle of linguistics. What is needed is a simple system whereby the answer to "Lieblingsfarbe" can be given as "favourite colour" (variety: UK English) or "favourite color" (variety: US English). I think the word "variety" is neutral enough to work without treading on anyone's toes.
[Edited at 2005-08-24 06:25]
I couldn't agree more.
All the best
Chris
| | | | Özden Arıkan
Germany
Local time: 10:05
Member
English to Turkish
+ ...
| Ian, now no one will ever doubt what variety you speak | Aug 27, 2005 |
Ian Winick wrote:
"favourite colour" (variety: UK English) or "favourite color" (variety: US English)
[Edited at 2005-08-27 13:29]
| | | | Jeff Allen
France
Local time: 10:05
Multiplelanguages
+ ...
| dialects, language, varieties, and the rest | Jun 28, 2008 |
Heidi C wrote:
The difference between the terms dialect and variety is philosophical. In the field of linguistics, both terms are correct.
From what I understand (and I am coming from linguistics in Spanish), the difference between using the term "dialect" or "varity" is basically one of respect.
Not quite true. I mentioned earlier that dialect is the appropriate term, but when talking with the general public it is better to say language variety. Variety is only a non-scientific (see Michele's post on scientific term) to reflect what dialect is in reality from a scientific point of view.
I was just revisiting this thread today because I'm answering a question about neutral accent in another forum and recalled that I had participated in a discussion on this topic here.
Some above also mentioned that the hierarchy is idiolect > dialect > language. This is incomplete.
In dialectology linguistics point of view (scientific), it is idiolect (individual) > patois (community) > dialect (regional) > language (natural boundaries)
Sociolect (as mentioned by Michele) also comes into play, but those factors tend to be due to current social criteria (social classes, ethic groups, access to media or not, etc). Sociolect maps on top of the existing historical language infrastracture, and influcences it.
The idiolect is developed and influenced by the family unit. This is of course influenced by peers/friends. the group of idiolects within a community or group of communities can be called a patois. This usually is from village to village. Then it is objectively possible to group all of the patois (based on language survey results which are referred to as isoglosses) into dialects. Language is simply the word to group all of the dialects together up to the point where natural boundaries like mountains, sea/ocean, canyons result in a more drastic break in interintelligibility between the groups. Take for example:
* The English channel separates the English language from French, Dutch, etc
* The Pyrenees mountains separate French from Spanish
http://www.euratlas.com/Atlasphys/Pyreneans.htm
* The southern Alps separate French from Italian
http://www.euratlas.com/Atlasphys/Alps.htm
* The Vosges and Jura mountains for French and German
http://www.euratlas.com/Atlasphys/Vosges2.htm
http://www.euratlas.com/Atlasphys/Jura2.htm
A good physical map which indicate country boundaries and helps show this in visual terms is at:
http://www.euratlas.com/Atlasphys/Countries.htm
Now, it is important not to completely associate country with language because country administrative boundaries are not necessarily equal to language boundaries. Take for instance the French language which extends beyond the French / Belgium border, and Dutch which is spoken both in Belgium and the Netherlands. This shows that it is not so much the political and administrative boundaries which count, but rather the physical boundaries which separate patois from patois, dialect from dialect, and language from language.
Also consider that the differences in US English dialects and Canadian English dialect are not due to a physical boundary between the 2 countries, but that Canada continued to operate under the British leadership and maintained UK spelling and lexical influence.
As for which varieties are dialects and which are language, they are all dialects. We have seen the term "prestige dialect" used in this thread. There is always a patois or dialect which is favored because on political reasons (it was the king's dialect) or economic reasons which will result in a specific patois or a regional dialect which will be declared to be the representative for the language.
The groupings of dialects into the higher level of language can be seen visually in what are known as a dialect atlas/dialect map/linguistic atlas, etc. I've been putting together a revised list of those which map out American English.
Linguistic Geography of the Mainland United States
http://www.evolpub.com/Americandialects/AmDialMap.html
The Organization of Dialect Diversity in North America
http://www.ling.upenn.edu/phono_atlas/ICSLP4.html
A National Map of the Regional Dialects of American English
http://www.ling.upenn.edu/phono_atlas/NationalMap/NationalMap.html
Dialect Map of American English
http://www.geocities.com/yvain.geo/dialects.html
US dialect map
http://www.ling.upenn.edu/phono_atlas/NationalMap/NatMap1.html
The Telsur Project is a survey of linguistic changes in progress in North American English
http://www.ling.upenn.edu/phono_atlas/home.html
Regional Dialects in the United States
http://www.uwm.edu/Course/350-192/region.html
Linguistic Atlas Projects
http://us.english.uga.edu/
From the point of view of identifying one's dialect for the ProZ system, it is best to use the ISO codes which indicate both language and the locale.
I agree that it is important that professional translators on this site should be familiar with the scientific meaning of dialect, and not just follow the layman's use of it. However, when going out to the street, and talking with those who are not sensitive with the scientific use, it is necessary to use the jargon of one's audience. This helps avoid misunderstandings that can go quite deep due to how language is closely linked to identity. If you use a word that makes fun of someone's identity, it might not pay off.
Jeff
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