| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4] > | Feminists attack Oxford Dictionary of English for 'reinforcing sexist stereotypes'
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| | Mervyn Henderson (X) 
Spain
Local time: 20:13
Spanish to English
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| Or a policewoman's whistle ... | Jan 26, 2016 |
... which is perfectly possible too. But I must admit I'd find it odd to read "the shrill sound of a policewoman's whistle" in a dictionary example because I'd find myself thinking, Why a policewoman? Does anyone know if they still get whistles too (I mean are they issued with them, naturally)? Probably neither sex does. Like you never hear anyone shouting Stop, thief! And it's a good job there's no feminine version of thief like thiefess, incidentally, otherwise passers-by could get cautioned f... See more ... which is perfectly possible too. But I must admit I'd find it odd to read "the shrill sound of a policewoman's whistle" in a dictionary example because I'd find myself thinking, Why a policewoman? Does anyone know if they still get whistles too (I mean are they issued with them, naturally)? Probably neither sex does. Like you never hear anyone shouting Stop, thief! And it's a good job there's no feminine version of thief like thiefess, incidentally, otherwise passers-by could get cautioned for shouting the masculine version if the perp's a woman.
Mervyn ▲ Collapse
| | | | P.L.F. Persio
Netherlands
Local time: 20:13
Member (2010)
English to Italian
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| A mixed-gender one | Jan 26, 2016 |
Chris S wrote:
Gender-neutral definitions of penis and vagina?
http://andreaskluth.org/2008/11/14/casanova-aged-11-discovers-wit/
Casanova was in his home town of Venice, with a group of people having supper. An Englishman, who was communicating with the Italians in Latin, which the educated were able to do in the Enlightenment era, wrote down a couplet for young Casanova to read:
Discite grammatici cur mascula nomina cunnus/Et cur femineum mentula nomen habet.
In English: “Tell us, grammarians, why cunnus (vulva) is masculine and mentula (penis) is feminine.”
Casanova announced that, rather than just translating the phrase, he would prefer to answer the question. So he wrote, in pentameter:
Disce quod a domino nomina servus habet.
In English: “It’s because the slave always bears the name of his master.”
You're welcome:-)
| | | | | Agree with Ty | Jan 26, 2016 |
Ty Kendall wrote: Michael Wetzel wrote:
Just for clarification: Is that kowtowing or acting like normal, civilized human beings by apologizing for a clearly flippant response and stating that they would review the use of a clearly questionable example sentence? I'm not entirely sure an apology was necessary, it is clearly stated by Oxford that: All the examples sentences throughout the site are real examples of usage. They are taken from a huge variety of different sources, from all parts of the world where English is used, and they reflect a wide spectrum of views and levels of language. Opinions and views expressed in the usage examples are the views of the individuals concerned and are not endorsed by Oxford University Press. http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/words/example-sentences-help Given this disclaimer, is it really Oxford's job to start censoring language usage? (No matter how unpalatable). I thought it was their job to show us how language is being used, not how we wished it would be used in an ideal utopia. ...and as others have noted, there are other (less self-aggrandizing) channels through which this could have been challenged. Even if I accept that an apology for the flippancy might be the polite thing to do (still debatable imo), I wouldn't advise doing it after being issued with an ultimatum (apologize or resign) by a Twitter SJW mob.
I think this is a valid point, along with the fact that it is not difficult to also find examples of generalizations about men.
I find it contrary to some fundamentals of our linguistic understanding to try to change people's views by controlling language. Language is our best, unmolested reflection of social views. If these examples are indeed lifted from usages "out there" in publications, then we should view them as measures of society as a whole and go from there. Removing these entries would turn OED from a cataloger of language use into a prescriber of social norms.
Make no mistake, I believe wholeheartedly that we live in a sexist world. I just hate to see the English language blamed, when it is merely a medium. Or to see the OED blamed, when it is merely a dictionary...
| | | | | Pummeling language | Jan 26, 2016 |
While I feel and defend that women's struggle to make society aware of gender issues is a just and much needed endeavour, I dislike the fact that the fight is taken primarily to the domain of language. I disagree with unnaturally altering language into a politically correct, shapeless, tasteless set of words that gradually tend to mean nothing.
If we continue along this path, it will only be a matter of time until someone somewhere is offended by new words and phrases that were cre... See more While I feel and defend that women's struggle to make society aware of gender issues is a just and much needed endeavour, I dislike the fact that the fight is taken primarily to the domain of language. I disagree with unnaturally altering language into a politically correct, shapeless, tasteless set of words that gradually tend to mean nothing.
If we continue along this path, it will only be a matter of time until someone somewhere is offended by new words and phrases that were created to stop offending ealier generations, and the language will thus continue to be altered again and again by the new generations until it no longer allows to identify any true reality and becomes some kind of noise. Some people will mumble meaningless utterances thinking they are communicating when in reality they are not, while others will prefer to remain silent most of the time. I might be exaggerating or getting apocalyptic... or may be I am getting old.
I do admit that changing the language is the fastest way to alter people's way of thinking, but what worries me is that the card of artificial alteration of language for a purpose was always in the toolbox of the worse mass murderers in the 20th century. Not a good credential, if you ask me. ▲ Collapse
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| It sounds odd | Jan 26, 2016 |
"Diputados y diputadas", "catalanes y catalanas", "catalanas y catalanes", "ellos y ellas" is widely used by today's politicians.
I presume very soon we will start using construction such as "días y noches fríos y frías".
The gender issue is there. In Spain, and elsewhere, tens of female victims are killed by their male partners or ex-partners each year. Hundreds or even thousands are probably subjected to physical violence of some sort. Women are less represented i... See more "Diputados y diputadas", "catalanes y catalanas", "catalanas y catalanes", "ellos y ellas" is widely used by today's politicians.
I presume very soon we will start using construction such as "días y noches fríos y frías".
The gender issue is there. In Spain, and elsewhere, tens of female victims are killed by their male partners or ex-partners each year. Hundreds or even thousands are probably subjected to physical violence of some sort. Women are less represented in upper management. That is an issue, not the language.
I insists that the correct forms are "diputados", "catalanes", "ellos" (unless all subjects are female) and "días y noches fríos". And that grammatically includes both, feminine and masculine (nothing to do with male and female).
[Edited at 2016-01-26 17:09 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Just a small thought experiment for all the machos here | Jan 26, 2016 |
I will never really fathom the male psyche.
the rising shrill of men’s voices
You'll surely find lots of other material in the OD for further experimentation.
Or imagine "she" in all but one of the examples for "research" (https://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/research). Surely it wouldn't struck you at all.... no wonder, if you... See more I will never really fathom the male psyche.
the rising shrill of men’s voices
You'll surely find lots of other material in the OD for further experimentation.
Or imagine "she" in all but one of the examples for "research" (https://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/research). Surely it wouldn't struck you at all.... no wonder, if you'd be referred to by "she" and "woman" for all your lives, with the "scholarly" explanation it's a "generic" usage. (What about Marcuse writing "One dimensional woman" )
I'm waiting for some stand up comedian to make use of it. (if you know about some sketch, links appreciated. I've seen some hilarious stuff based on a broad "role changing" but nothing purely linguistic). ▲ Collapse
| | | | | A mixed-gender one | Jan 26, 2016 |
@missdutch: Reading comments like this, I really miss some upvoting system in the comment section!
| | | | neilmac
Spain
Local time: 20:13
Spanish to English
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| Sauce for the gander | Jan 26, 2016 |
Alvaro Espantaleon wrote:
From Oxford dictionary:
Rude: he is a rude and arrogant bully
Aggressive: he’s very uncooperative and aggressive
Obnoxious: he found her son somewhat obnoxious
Lascivious: he gave her a lascivious wink
Dirty: he told a stream of dirty jokes
According to Oxford dictionary men are rude, arrogant, aggressive, obnoxious, lascivious and make dirty jokes.
Thank you for a modicum of balance. I'll think twice before poking the hornet's nest next time...
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neilmac
Spain
Local time: 20:13
Spanish to English
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| He gets it... | Jan 26, 2016 |
Andrew Slusher wrote:s.
Make no mistake, I believe wholeheartedly that we live in a sexist world. I just hate to see the English language blamed, when it is merely a medium. Or to see the OED blamed, when it is merely a dictionary...
My thoughts exactly, which is why, in the absence of an eyeroll emoji like the one you find on Skype, I posted my original "comment".
| | | | | Correction - ANTHROPOLOGIST attacks Oxford Dictionary etc. | Jan 26, 2016 |
While the title of the article is "Feminists attack...." the article states:
Michael Oman-Reagan, an anthropologist at Memorial University of Newfoundland ...
As soon as a statement is attributed to a group, emotions are manipulated. "Feminist" is often a dirty word, associated with unreasonableness, exaggerated radical stances, hostility toward men, wishing to supplant male dominance with female dominance etc. So by choosing this title, immediately emotions are stirred up... See more While the title of the article is "Feminists attack...." the article states:
Michael Oman-Reagan, an anthropologist at Memorial University of Newfoundland ...
As soon as a statement is attributed to a group, emotions are manipulated. "Feminist" is often a dirty word, associated with unreasonableness, exaggerated radical stances, hostility toward men, wishing to supplant male dominance with female dominance etc. So by choosing this title, immediately emotions are stirred up, and prejudice toward whatever Mr. Oman-Reagan may have to say.
I looked up Mr. Oman-Reagan and could not find any information about him being a feminist or not being one. But it is clear that he is an anthropologist. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 19:13
Hebrew to English
Oxford have published a post letting us all know that they intend to remove anything that may offend anyone and replace it with something suitably nondescript and anodyne.
http://blog.oxforddictionaries.com/2016/01/dictionary-examples/
Although I can see a problem developing down the line. All the examples for "shrill" now have example sentences wi... See more Oxford have published a post letting us all know that they intend to remove anything that may offend anyone and replace it with something suitably nondescript and anodyne.
http://blog.oxforddictionaries.com/2016/01/dictionary-examples/
Although I can see a problem developing down the line. All the examples for "shrill" now have example sentences with male subjects, I fear that if they start removing the female pronoun from many of the example sentences it won't be long before someone pipes up complaining about 'female erasure' in Oxford dictionaries.
Anyway, the Twitter mob can sleep easy tonight, they can go about their business pretending to themselves that "shrill" will never be used again to describe high-pitched female voices, "flamboyant" will never be used to describe a gay man,...
Meanwhile, in the real world... ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Meanwhile, in the real world... | Jan 26, 2016 |
I enjoyed reading this topic, the many positions, the jokes and the logic in all posts. I'm not adding any new comment because Ty Kendall pretty much summed up what I think about.
Just letting you know that in the real world someone else (rather neutral isn't it?) is reading the topic.
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Kay Denney
France
Local time: 20:13
French to English
| officer if you please! | Jan 26, 2016 |
Mervyn Henderson wrote:
... which is perfectly possible too. But I must admit I'd find it odd to read "the shrill sound of a policewoman's whistle" in a dictionary example because I'd find myself thinking, Why a policewoman? Does anyone know if they still get whistles too (I mean are they issued with them, naturally)? Probably neither sex does. Like you never hear anyone shouting Stop, thief! And it's a good job there's no feminine version of thief like thiefess, incidentally, otherwise passers-by could get cautioned for shouting the masculine version if the perp's a woman.
Mervyn
why not use the PC term "police officer", then cliché-lovers can imagine a man enforcing law and order while the PC PCs* are free to imagine a more womanly whistler?
(* politically correct police constables )
| | | | neilmac
Spain
Local time: 20:13
Spanish to English
+ ...
| Best in show | Jan 26, 2016 |
Maxi Schwarz wrote: While the title of the article is "Feminists attack...." the article states: Michael Oman-Reagan, an anthropologist at Memorial University of Newfoundland ... As soon as a statement is attributed to a group, emotions are manipulated. "Feminist" is often a dirty word, associated with unreasonableness, exaggerated radical stances, hostility toward men, wishing to supplant male dominance with female dominance etc. So by choosing this title, immediately emotions are stirred up, and prejudice toward whatever Mr. Oman-Reagan may have to say. I looked up Mr. Oman-Reagan and could not find any information about him being a feminist or not being one. But it is clear that he is an anthropologist.
Nice research and comment there, my favourite so far
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Are we talking about Oxford.com or about the Oxford Dictionary of English (and presumably some other Oxford paper dictionary editions)?
The original Twitter post only makes sense in the context of the print dictionaries, where Oxford does actually select one or, in some cases, a small handful of usage examples. I think it is stupid that the one example in in my ODE is "a rabid feminist", and I think a different example ought to appear in the next edition. This seems like a case of s... See more Are we talking about Oxford.com or about the Oxford Dictionary of English (and presumably some other Oxford paper dictionary editions)?
The original Twitter post only makes sense in the context of the print dictionaries, where Oxford does actually select one or, in some cases, a small handful of usage examples. I think it is stupid that the one example in in my ODE is "a rabid feminist", and I think a different example ought to appear in the next edition. This seems like a case of some cog in the giant machinery of the Oxford Dictionaries trying to quietly annoy people that he or she (there is no shortage of female anti-feminists) doesn't like.
The fact that Oxford has now (rightly or wrongly) interpreted that Twitter post to mean that they should strictly censor the extensive usage examples in their online dictionaries is a different matter entirely.
I now also understand why the line of argument behind Ty's posts is perfectly reasonable instead of painfully illogical.
>>>Edit: I just skimmed over the Guardian article linked below by Neil and apparently (assuming that the Guardian hasn't also botched the story) the anthropologist did want the example taken off of oxford.com.
That does seem misguided to me.
I do not think that a mildly inflammatory usage example, which I would prefer to not have my children see enshrined in an authoratative book (the ODE) and which has been singled out for inclusion in a proper dictionary, should be allowed to remain in the ODE.
I am sure that there are a lot of sentences in the Oxford Corpus that clearly should not be and are not included even among a long list of examples in an Internet setting, but I would set the bar for inappropriateness much higher in that context. And in the context of oxford.com (instead of a conventional dictionary), the Oxford disclaimer cited above by Ty is relevant and understandable instead of a bizarrely stupid cop-out (which is what it would be if used to defend a lone example actively selected for inclusion in a conventional dictionary).
And I guess it is a matter of personal history: "shrill" and "rabid" are words that I associate primarily with anti-feminism and anti-PC rhetoric. But that is certainly a generational and geographical issue related to the experiences that I associate with words.
[Edited at 2016-01-27 11:02 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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