| Pages in topic: < [1 2] | "Proofreading" you say? Thread poster: Lily von Wielligh (X)
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| The opposite | Jul 10, 2020 |
Samuel Murray wrote:
MTPE isn't particularly difficult or taxing on the mind, nor would you need frequent breaks, nor would you be so tired after several hours that you can't function properly.
This may be true for Afrikaans, but for Japanese, the output is still extremely bad for all but the simplest of texts. I tried MTPE for a bit and it nearly melted my brain (very slight exaggeration). I wouldn't do it again, not even for twice my rate. If this is the future of the industry, it's time to find another job.
| | | | | Last time I tried | Jul 10, 2020 |
PEMT at editing rates? Who's new enough to think MT requires as little work as editing a proper human translation? One has to be one can short of a six-can pack to accept "proofreading rates" to post-edit MT.
I took on large PEMT projects 10-15 years ago at EUR0.045/0.05 and it was very worthwhile: more earnings per hour than translation (40 is my threshold).
Last time I tried in 2013, I WAS OFFERED EUR0.07/word by one of the fat ones. I tried again and it wasn't worth it for ... See more PEMT at editing rates? Who's new enough to think MT requires as little work as editing a proper human translation? One has to be one can short of a six-can pack to accept "proofreading rates" to post-edit MT.
I took on large PEMT projects 10-15 years ago at EUR0.045/0.05 and it was very worthwhile: more earnings per hour than translation (40 is my threshold).
Last time I tried in 2013, I WAS OFFERED EUR0.07/word by one of the fat ones. I tried again and it wasn't worth it for me.
I no longer have agency clients who offer me MTPE jobs. I don't like MTPE jobs, but I have been in translation full time, not as a hobby. I am here to make a living.
I am insignificant in the business to shape the future of translation, and I translate (and similar) only to earn money. Exclusively. The "We should all turn down MT jobs" tune is ridiculous, no offense. Why not pick flowers in the field nearby for Mummy instead. If I am asked to unbend paperclips at my hourly rate, I'll do it. However "petty" and "unworthy of a highly educated, self-respecting individual" it might be. All this will be under the "self-employed translator" service, because agencies do ask specifically that translators do it, and not drone operators. There will be no consequence whatsoever on the remaining of my working life, as opposed to employed people listing their achievements and responsibilities for each position they hold.
[A personal opinion:
MT illustrates where the economy is going: machines instead of humans if the ultimate achievement of ultracapitalistic models. Removing humans from the success equation. Humans are unmanageable, have disproportionate expectations and don't always do what they're told.
Future: added value is sucked up by self-maintained/repaired machines, with almost nothing left for humans to live on. MT machine makers build space shuttles with the added value generated by machines and colonise other planets in other galaxies. Starting on the right foot at last, only gifted and seeing-big people, no under-equipped individuals, no complaining noise or interference, exactly as they dreamed. Planet Earth is scorching hot and slowly recovers with photosynthesis and bacterial activity. Or MT machine makers find the elixir of eternity and can at last follow up and act upon infinitely long-term projects, like becoming kings of all known visible multiverses, or God.]
The more intricate the process to figure out an overall fee for a PEMT project, the more likely you're being ripped off: double your unit rate (whether per word/time).
Hourly rate? why not.
Charge the hourly rate you feel comfortable with. An hour is an hour, and you'll never get it back. I'd charge 50, because I certainly wouldn't want to work on boring stuff for less.
Basically, if you feel you're being exploited, don't do it. If you're ok with it, do it.
If you're good and productive at MTPE, you can even make it your USP. But there's no point in taking on projects that are badly paid if you can afford not to.
Philippe ▲ Collapse
| | | | Samuel Murray 
Netherlands
Local time: 21:44
Member (2006)
Ingiriisi to Afrikaans
+ ...
| @Hans, @Kuochoe | Jul 10, 2020 |
Hans Lenting wrote:
I experience PEMT to be a doubled cognitive load, since I not only have to compare the source segments with my optimal translation, but also with the suggested MT suggestion.
Oh, I just skip the "own optimal translation" step and directly compare the source text against the machine translation. I try to make the text broadly idiomatic but I don't try to turn a machine translated target text into the same kind of translation that I would have created independently. As soon as the target text meaning is "the same" as the source text, and there are no syntactical or grammatical errors (and I have implemented consistent term usage), I move on to the next segment.
There is a special skill involved, I must admit: I have met translators who are unable to evaluate whether a poor translation is still an adequate translation, and/or who are not satisfied until the edited translation completely reflects their own preferences.
Kuochoe Nikoi-Kotei wrote:
This may be true for Afrikaans, but for Japanese, the output is still extremely bad for all but the simplest of texts.
Okay, so it depends on the language. In that case, Lily, I suggest you try a few sample texts in your own language combination. I also suggest that you try different MT engines, because you never know what engine your client uses.
| | | | Daniel Williams
United Kingdom
Local time: 20:44
Member (2018)
German to Ingiriisi
+ ...
| True in theory - not in practice! | Jul 10, 2020 |
Stepan Konev wrote:
Joakim Braun wrote:
It's impossible to proofread MT without looking at the source text.
If you 'proofread MT', you don't proofread. You do something else but not proofreading.
In theory you are right, Stepan. In practice, every agency I've every worked with has had its own guidelines on proofreads and reviews, so I tend to pay less attention to the terminology they use and more attention to their actual instructions.
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Daniel Williams
United Kingdom
Local time: 20:44
Member (2018)
German to Ingiriisi
+ ...
| Remember your hourly rate | Jul 10, 2020 |
The trick with MTPE jobs is to make sure you can do them at a reasonable hourly rate. I am happy to do MTPE, but I will only work at half my translation rate if I can do it in half the time it would take me to re-write the text from scratch. I will not provide a complete re-translation for half rate, and if I think a full re-write is required, I put my rates up accordingly.
[Edited at 2020-07-10 16:24 GMT]
| | | | | The hourly rate is the hourly rate is the hourly rate | Jul 11, 2020 |
Daniel Williams wrote:
The trick with MTPE jobs is to make sure you can do them at a reasonable hourly rate. I am happy to do MTPE, but I will only work at half my translation rate if I can do it in half the time it would take me to re-write the text from scratch. I will not provide a complete re-translation for half rate, and if I think a full re-write is required, I put my rates up accordingly.
[Edited at 2020-07-10 16:24 GMT]
What is an hourly rate? The rate you charge for delivering an accurate and stylistically flawless task, be it translation, editing or proofreading.
For that rate, it doesn't matter if you use MT or not. If it takes you only half the time, good for you. But why in the world would you cut your rate in half? You're already making less at your regular hourly rate because it's taking you less time. So now you're going to cheat yourself out of an additional 50%?
It's also incorrect to assume it takes so much less time to turn a machine translation into an excellent translation. On the contrary. And even if it did, why reduce your rate? Only you can deliver the accurate translation. A machine translation is no way to guarantee that. It might help YOU because YOU can determine which parts to keep and which to discard. But in the end, what you are selling is your knowledge and your skill, not the fact that you happen to use MT in the process.
If agencies value MT so much, let them just sell the MT output. Or even better, tell clients to put their texts through GT themselves and be done with it. Let's see what it will do for their business.
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Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
If agencies value MT so much, let them just sell the MT output. Or even better, tell clients to put their texts through GT themselves and be done with it. Let's see what it will do for their business.
| | | | Emma Gledhill
Switzerland
Local time: 21:44
German to Ingiriisi
+ ...
| We're still experienced writers | Jul 16, 2020 |
Bernhard Sulzer wrote:
Daniel Williams wrote:
The trick with MTPE jobs is to make sure you can do them at a reasonable hourly rate. I am happy to do MTPE, but I will only work at half my translation rate if I can do it in half the time it would take me to re-write the text from scratch. I will not provide a complete re-translation for half rate, and if I think a full re-write is required, I put my rates up accordingly.
[Edited at 2020-07-10 16:24 GMT]
What is an hourly rate? The rate you charge for delivering an accurate and stylistically flawless task, be it translation, editing or proofreading.
For that rate, it doesn't matter if you use MT or not. If it takes you only half the time, good for you. But why in the world would you cut your rate in half? You're already making less at your regular hourly rate because it's taking you less time. So now you're going to cheat yourself out of an additional 50%?
It's also incorrect to assume it takes so much less time to turn a machine translation into an excellent translation. On the contrary. And even if it did, why reduce your rate? Only you can deliver the accurate translation. A machine translation is no way to guarantee that. It might help YOU because YOU can determine which parts to keep and which to discard. But in the end, what you are selling is your knowledge and your skill, not the fact that you happen to use MT in the process.
If agencies value MT so much, let them just sell the MT output. Or even better, tell clients to put their texts through GT themselves and be done with it. Let's see what it will do for their business.
This. As I said to an agency last week, they aren't paying me for my typing skills.
There's also the classic anecdote of the marine engineer who charged 10k to replace a widget on a broken-down tanker engine, when the client complained about the invoice when the part only cost 5, the reply was "it's 5 for the widget and 9995 for my expertise to know which widget to replace and to install it"
MT is here to stay now and others have mentioned the variability of the quality of output; with DeepL, for instance, it's noticeable that the quality for German is very high but Dutch less so. The benefit of MT is that it takes some of the physical legwork out of it for us; it doesn't, however, replace our experience, creativity and writing skills. It's merely another tool in our toolbox, in the same way that CNC machines are merely tools. It behoves us, however, to keep pushing the fact that we are key stakeholders in the communication process and not just mechanical word substituters.
[Edited at 2020-07-16 09:51 GMT]
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| I'm SICK with these offers | Oct 21, 2020 |
I will rather become a lumberjack than provide anyone even one percent discount for this PEMT nonsense. And I encourage you all to join my strike. This is going far too far.
| | | | Nurettin Ceylan
Türkiye
Local time: 23:44
Member (2009)
Ingiriisi to Turkish
| Machine Translation Sucks..! | Oct 21, 2020 |
I don't know much about the other language pairs but for English>Turkish pair, it just doesn't work..!
| | | | Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 20:44
Member (2008)
Talyaani to Ingiriisi
Lily von Wielligh wrote:
Thank you everyone for all your insight, I'm glad to see that most of you agree with my viewpoint. May I ask, what would the appropriate hourly rate be then? I know it's tricky to give precise figures, but what would be the estimation? Let's say, what would YOU ask for it? Sorry for a lot of questions, I'm new in this commnity and trying to find my feet
Ask your washing machine repair man how much he charges per hour, and charge the same.
| | | | | MT or human trans | Dec 13, 2022 |
I encounter more and more "proofreading" jobs where the translation agency says it was done by a translator but it is obvious that it's a MT. Now I always ask for a sample of the text to be proofread to assess quality before accepting a job.
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